Natural - v - Caesarean - a new thread

[JoolsToo]

sorry to be bossy but can we carry on here?

I'm for natural when possible

"Whichever is safer for mother and baby...who decides though?"

That's probably the key question. How much info you have and how much trust you have in the medical system in general and your medical team in particular. I think it's difficult to make up your mind based only on medical knowledge and statistics but then if you look only at others' experiences that's not the safest way to get to a decision either.

www, stirrups are still v v popular in the US - I often watch A Baby Story with my legs crossed and eyes half closed! And there always seem to be about 25 people in the room all peering. Televised UK births are masterpieces of calm as a rule - just mum, partner and midwife quite often.

Maybe that partly accounts for Uwila's aversion to VB...

But aloha, you are intelligent, educated, informed. If women are treated badly or not given the information with which to make informed choices then that is wrong, surely? I don't think 25% of women NEED sections (does anyone? genuine question) but that's what happens in the States. So I do think asking questions about why this happens is valid and reasonable actually. I wouldn't dream of telling you you ought to have a vb but I do think it's ok to discuss this.

and the figure for CS's in the UK is around 20%

And Aloha, I'm NOT talking about moral heirarchy, not at all.

The day DD1 was born in NY (23 years ago!) 75% of the deliveries in that hosp were by CS. It is a neonatal specialist (helipad on roof) but even so...

I think that statistics aside (and I don't think you can argue with overall mortality rates being higher for CS vs VB), you can still question why there is this moral superiority of one type of birth over another. If you were to look at VBs only, why ones with no pain relief at the top of the scale? What's so good about pain? (BTW, I did have a VB with no pain relief.)

Cristina, most types of pain relief do involve drugs. My DS1 collapsed when he was born, and nearly died (scored 1 on his five-minute Apgars, that'll tell you how bad he was). Whilst no-one has ever been quite sure why, a strong candidate was the pethidine I had about 8 hours before he was born. That is why I felt so strongly that the best thing I could do for DS2 and DS3 would be to avoid all drugs (which I did).

Just to answer my own question about pain relief in VB, first time I had an epidural and decided that second time around I'd have only gas & air as I thought the epidural might have contributed at the difficulty of giving birth. I didn't plan on having no pain relief at all but I can see why some people would choose that. Doh, I type faster than I think.

Sorry Cristina, didn't realise that Aloha had started the line of thought. Aloha, it's not a moral hierarchy at all, but a question of what is best for the baby, surely?

Dinosaur - as you'll see I thought back to my own experience and yes, I can see why. But is it a moral issue or one of safety? Again, I don't think it jars when people talk about safety, it's when one takes the moral highground that I find it really off-putting.

I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if i'm repeating anything here.
I had an emergency section after spending 28 hours in labour and ventouse and forceps both being used but to no avail. At that stage, i didn't care what they did.. i just wanted my baby to be born safe and well. The op went well and i had a beautiful 8lb 6oz ds. I managed to breastfeed within minutes of the delivery and i felt delighted... until i got to the ward. Two midwives started fussing over me, asking me how i felt about having a section and did i feel disappointed that i didn't have a 'normal' delivery?! I told them that i couldn't have cared less about how my little one came into the world and that i was just relieved to have him in my arms. One of them said that i could actually consider myself lucky to have experienced labour and then finish it all off with a nice relaxed and not painful birth!!!! Having a c-section is not a soft or easy option, nor do i feel cheated out of having a natural delivery. At the end of the day, my baby was born safely... surely thats what matters?

I accept that some people think a drug free vb is morally superior to a c section and I do think that's wrong.

Yes, the main thing is that women and babies are delivered alive and well, I think we probably all agree that's the desired outcome. I still think discussions about childbirth and how we give birth and why are allowed and important. The report 'Changing Childbirth' really did change a lot of things about childbirth and the treatment of women, as has the NCT.

I think it is so common for mothers who have gone through 'trial of labour' to feel morally superior to those that don't that you are on a back-step to begin with admitting you had a c-section

I have found myself explaining to complete strangers the medical reasons behind why I had a section when it is none of their business otherwise I am left with the impression that they feel superior or I am an inferior parent

it is reinforced with the whole 20% of births are sections statistics [horror], each of those is an individual case with individual reasons and an individual mother choosing for individual reasons, so should I not chose a section because it riskes pushing up the figures?

but Mud I was one of those 20% stastics and looking back I DON'T believe a CS was nessecary - it was classed as 'emergency' but not emergency enough to rush me in - rather because I'd eaten breakfast (expecting to be induced and therefore need lots of energy) made me wait 4hrs!!!!

I know I'm NOT the only person who's had an unnessecary CS - and if I hadn't had a fantastic MW with my VBAC I would probably have ended up with 'another' unnessecary CS with DS2 - consultant wanted to do one, I was screaming that I wanted one (didn't really but it was just about the only words I could think of LOL) but MW knew that I specifically DIDN'T want another CS unless 100% medically nessecary (which is wasn't)

There is a moral standard behind this. I RESENT being asked (by my NCT friends, to be blunt) whether I had a "natural" birth ... or WHAT? An "unnatural" one? What kind of language is that? It's misogyny perpetrated by women themselves, and it makes me really angry!

True Mud. You just can't compare labours. How many times have I heard new mums proudly declare that they have such a "high pain threshold" they didn't need pain relief. Labour can be very competitive unfortunately.
I believe in choice and what's best/safest for mum and baby, but I also think it's important to look at WHY women prefer c-sections and are scared of labour.9especially after 1st baby). I personally believe it has a lot to do with the support you get from MWs in labour. I was quite honeslty shocked by the care I had from MWs. I found them uncaring and uninvolved in my labour. I don't think it made a difference to the outcome, but I think I trusted them less in my subsequent labours. I certainly didn't trust them to give me proper advice and manage my labour properly.

Well I had a drug free birth (they refused me an Epidurial on the grounds of being too late), with back to back, syntocin, stirrups, ventouse failure and then forceps after with episiotomy of course.
Ten days overdue as well, 8lb 4oz boy.
Natural or Ceasarian?

Don't even have to consider that answer.

it's important to look at WHY women prefer
c-sections and are scared of labour

Well for me, I'm scared of labour because I have to have an enormous baby ripping her way through my vagina which caused pain like I had never believed possible for hour after hour in a situation which is still incredibly high risk, and there is as yet no truly safe method of pain relief or sedative to make this any easier for me.

I am for vaginal delivery wherever possible but I wish people would understand how hard it can be to hear constant negative comments about c sections and by extension the women who have them.

I had a totally medically necessary elective section nearly 4 years ago. I found it very difficult to deal with emotionally at the time and if I'm totally honest I still feel like a failure for it, even though I know the reasons for it and I know that ds wasn't coming out any other way. I still feel that I am judged for it, and I still feel defensive about the whole subject. I'm having another baby in June and am very keen for a vbac but will have to see nearer the time.

When people say too posh to push it makes me want to sock them in the mouth.

but MP - the same could be said for CS's - they still haven't found a way of performing major abdominable surgery without the risks involved.....

Gwenick: But you don't get the hours of physical and psychological torture. And the statistics quoted (which showed only 4x greater mortality) are actually v. reassuring, because most c-sections would be high-risk women (who a 100 years ago would simply be dead, or locked up in an assylum because they never got over their horrific experience of birth).

My reply, Mrsflowerpot, is that my babies were too posh to be pushed

MrsFlowerpot - do you think the use of "elective" c/s is problematic? Elective means by choice but in many (most?) cases it's not a real choice.