Would any kind MNers be willing to talk to me about my dd's birth? I would like to move on from it.

[ShowOfHands]

I appreciate that this seems a rather self-indulgant thing to do but I feel that I need to put what happened behind me and I know that to do this I need to talk it through. I have tried the Birth Trauma website but floundered rather in the tales of other births. DH has tried to talk it over with me but obviously our experiences of the day are very different and he adopts an attitude of believing it is best just to leave it in the past. I am carrying around a lot of guilt about the birth and it is affecting not only the way I parent but my decision to have more children. I want a big family but I am so frightened of birth that I'm avoiding any physical contact with DH. The idea of getting pg again makes me physically panic. I cannot think about it.

What I want is something that isn't possible. I want somebody to tell me why the birth went the way it did. I don't understand so much of what happened. I am being sent a copy of the notes but am not hopeful of finding any answers as I read my postnatal notes and they were a lengthy list of lies and conjecture.

The birth briefly:

My waters broke suddenly at 39 weeks and contractions started within half an hour. I was having a home waterbirth. Took 20hrs to get to 10cm and my contractions stopped. I got out of the pool to re-start them and wasn't allowed back in. Contractions started again lasting 2 minutes and with a 30 second break inbetween. I had no urge to push but was urged to push with each contraction. I pushed for nearly 5 hours in every conceivable position. DD did not descend at all. I transferred to hospital. Dishy surgeon examined me and said em cs was necessary as dd was stuck (obviously). I begged them to try something else. Forceps wasn't possible because of her position apparently and they said they would try a ventouse in theatre but not to get my hopes up. Had a spinal block, 3 surgeons attempted a ventouse delivery. They swore a lot and pulled me down the bed with the effort. No luck. I had an em cs. The surgeon who delivered dd said there was no conceivable way she could have been born naturally and not to believe it was anything I did.

See, not that traumatic really and I'm being a bit of a baby. Please don't shout at me. I was so grateful to have a happy and healthy baby and I feel selfish for fixating on the birth. I planned a home waterbirth, skin to skin and immediate breastfeeding. I didn't see dd as she was born and she was taken away to be checked because of PROM and jaundice. They brought her back clean and dressed. She didn't feed for 24hrs and was sleepy because of the jaundice and it took a long time to establish a good bf relationship.

I have so many questions and I know you can't answer them but they go round my head in the middle of the night when I've been having flashbacks. Why was she stuck? What happened? The ventouse tears and scars are by her right ear so her head was on its side I presume? How did this happen? Why couldn't my body deliver her? Why didn't I have the urge to push? Is there something wrong with me that means I can't deliver naturally? Will I never have that urge to push that people talk about?

I feel selfish and self-absorbed but this is affecting my sex life, my confidence and my plans to have any more children.

Please, if you can spare a minute I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Hi Show of Hands - I am a huge Martyn Joseph fan, although lo currently preventing us from attending concerts.

You would have to ask your mw regarding your last question, they may or may not classify your pelvis as 'unproven'. The words they use - ridiculous.

I had a labour not dissimilar to yours which just did not end in a c-section ( 2 days latent, ARM, drip - epidural as not dilating - baby op and transvers - finally dilated - pushed - baby in distress - get ready for section - managed to push in theatre after rotational forceps) but my lo did not escape unscathed, he incurred some brain damage, although probably before the forceps.

Still I feel good about my labour and I think it is because my medical staff were fab. Fantastic midwives and a skilled registrar who explained everything, outlined all options until she felt there were no more options then explained that carefully.

You have been badly let down. And you are traumatised. It really is not interesting whether you should be or whether the average person would be. You are and that is a fact and that it ok. You are very deserving of help. I recommend a course of cognitive behavioural therapy to help you deal with the trauma by teaching you proper and helpful coping strategies.

You will get there, but you must give yourself time. You have been through a lot.

oh and I hope you were joking about pushing a 'wee bit'. I felt exhausted at the thought of what you achieved. You are one strong woman.

There's a birth story here that you may find helpful - some babies just do get into an awkward position and can't be born without help. You did your very best.

madmouse, I love Martyn Joseph! I've seen him live on his own and with Show Of Hands and Tom Robinson. I have been wondering if cognitive behavioural therapy would help. I'll look into it. I'm not very good at asking for help.

YeoValleyGirl, thank you for posting that link. That's my labour. My actual labour. Except I didn't try unassisted. The anterior placenta, early decelerations into the second stage, pain of VEs, changes in pain as the 2nd stage progressed and that certain knowledge that Something Is Wrong. I said to dh over and over again 'she's dying'. I didn't mean it, I meant that something had gone wrong but as a first timer and an exhausted one at that, I was reassured by everybody that it was just 'one more push'. The contractions weren't right. I knew from reading and reading that they weren't right in length or location. That's very reassuring that she managed so many other straightforward births.

It sounds to me that you didn't prepare yourself for things to go wrong so it's hit you really hard, what happened is so far removed from what you expected. Also you weren't given the medical details which you need to know and understand. You must go back and get these. I can understand and empathise, I had surgery after I was induced and didn't have a clue what they had done or what had happened. No one told me! I had to make an app at the docs and go back and find it all out. I hated my experience too. But you need to be strong and take control now and get the facts, accept that your treatment from an emotional perspective was a bit crap but you had a healthy baby and you were ok. You need make sure that you are informed of all the possible outcomes when you have the next one and what can be done. Do some research, go to AIMS, NCT, read Sheila Kitzenger.

I don't have the time I want to read this whole thread as DS2 is whining at me for more food

SOH, (and anyone else) Come and join us here on the Birth Trauma Thread.

Message withdrawn

I think it's worth it to pay someone who knows the system and will represent your interests.

I really feel for you and know from my own experience how trauma surrounding the birth can cast a nasty pall - it did for me and the actual circumstances honestly weren't half as rough as yours.
I am now pregnant with my second and when I was first pregnant I started looking for ways in which to avoid a repeat of the first birth. What has helped me hugely is that I went to see a hypnotherapist for one session and actually had a combination of hypnotherapy and EFT (emotional freedom techniques). I have never done anything like this before but after just this one session (plus some EFT practice at home - it's incredibly easy) the intensity/trauma surrounding the birth dulled very significantly. For me my experience was 10/10 in the trauma scale, after the session and practice I would rate it a 2/10 and I feel much more distant from the situation. This approach didn't answer the questions about why such and such happened but it somehow took away this need to know why which I honestly thought would never happen.
I've also been on a hypnobirthing course this time round and that has helped me enormously to prepare to give birth again as well as explaining how fear and pain can physically stop your body from doing its natural function of giving birth. Obviously the proof of the pudding is still to be eaten as I haven't yet given birth again, but I just wanted to let you know that I am the sort of person who never thought I would go for such treatments but I've tried them and they've made a huge difference to me. Good luck.

rebelmum, I read and read and read whilst pregnant. I know too much if anything about what can go wrong. I wonder if that contributes to how I'm feeling and my worries about a theoretical next time. I knew so much theory but so little of what was actually happening to me. I think I felt out of control and uninformed. They kept saying 'just one more push' and I know they were trying to encourage me but I knew enough about birth and my own body to know that was a lie. Every time I said 'what's wrong?' I was told it was fine and this was normal for a first time birth. That lack of explanation, feeling out of control and the hideous, awful, neglect they call aftercare probably caused the problems I'm having in dealing with it.

VS I'll head over to the birth trauma thread, thanks for the link.

I dream of having a doula for the next one. I do have an MN friend who is an ex-midwife who has promised to help next time.

I'm trying to write a letter to the hospital but I can't get past 'Dear Evils, What were you thinking?'.

SOH In my opinion you can't know too much. You said "The contractions weren't right. I knew from reading and reading that they weren't right in length or location." You listened to your body and could feel something was not right. This to me shows you are an ideal homebirther you can interpret your body accurately the staff just did not listen to you and their encouragement was just not it was a contradiction to what you knew was happening. You had misinformation from the staff and it went against what you knew was happening.

What is bad about of this is your treatment by the hospital and its staff. Google is a minefield of information some of which you have to dismiss. It would not say 'no contrary indications to VBAC' if you had an inadequate pelvis.

Your brother is a twonk.

Knowing a little about how you parent and your dreams of a homebirth I feel some of this is embarrassment about not getting what you wanted and hoped for. Even though it was out of your control. It does not matter what anyone else thinks you know you did the best for your baby and she is here and well. Unfortunately although M is very advanced she did not read the same books you did and although you probably told her all about it she was probably daydreaming on the day you ran through the birth plan with her. They like to do this our children. She was just not aware of the rules of how she should be born.

I have had a successful homebirth so know my body can labour and deliver so having an em LSCS myself I also feel a failure but expect you to tell me I am not. Unfortunately a few words over the internet can not actually change how we feel. Logic and reasoning does not play a part in our feelings does it. I can really appreciate where you are coming from. Unfortunately you also know I feel guilt from not being able to grow my baby properly. Even though I have had my debrief and been told there is/was nothing I could have done I still feel a failure so although I have tried to help I know it will probably have little impact on how you actually feel. What we need to do SOH is try to find a way to reduce the negativity of our feelings and concentrate on the things we can be in control of. This is where your great parenting comes in. I think it is why I persevered so much to establish BF and still do BF to compensate to some extent on the perceived "shoddy" way my body performed in delivering/growing my boys.

PS You are a great mom and lentil weaver and M does you proud. Keep up the good work.

< falls down >

Listen lady i rocked for all i was worth too and it made not a blind bit of difference to the wedges head, the sodding vacuum was the only thing that worked.

I was lucky

Mathilda was stuck, it was not your fault, she really could not come out that way. All your rocking may have shifted her slightly but certainly not enough to get her out. Nothing, not even the consultant placing his hand inside and trying to pull her out was going to work.

I have since thought about this getting to 10cm, i think really you are going to do very well next time. Normally you need good application of the head to the cervix for it to dilate nice and evenly and the baby to be born. You managed to do all that without her head being properly applied. Very good i think.

Clearly you open up at the drop of hat

Charley you speak so much sense. I have such admiration for you and the strength you've shown before, during and after the birth of your DTs.

You're right about the BF. I was so bloody stubborn about that. DD had no bottles, I pushed on through the bleeding and recurrent mastitis because I 'owed' dd part of my body doing its job properly.

Oh and the embarrassment of the birth. You're correct, except it's more than that. It's shame. It's created this sub-text to the birth, a pretext for the next. If I have another I won't be planning a birth, it'll be a VBAC, it won't be a normal delivery, it'll be one after caesarean. It'll inform my antenatal care, my fight for a homebirth, my delivery. When it happened it changed my postnatal care, my body, the way people talked about the birth. My Mum has two scan pictures on her shelf at home. One is dd, the other is my dn who was born a few months later. On both it says the names, birth dates and weight. Next to dd it says 'by emergency caesarean'. I challenged my Mum on why she had written it and she shrugged. I pressed on and asked why it didn't say 'through a vagina' on dn's. She said 'it's just a fact'. It's not just a fact. It's a bloody great trauma.

Maybe if it was my second it wouldn't be so bad. At his point in time I'm a mother but didn't deliver vaginally. I don't know if I ever will. It's all well and good knowing I did nothing wrong and it was 'one of those things' but what if I never get to give birth. It seems selfish and pathetic but it's not just that birth, it's the potential loss of never doing that one thing that I've always imagined.

I think of you often charley and how brave and good you must have been in those hours after having your boys.

Fark off lg&t, you weren't supposed to catch me whingeing again.

Still not coming to your dungeon though you hussy.

Oh SOH my lovely girl, I cannot add anymore to this thread that would be constuctive or helpful to you. All I can do is offer my support and an ear to bend if you need to. x

SOH I think you may never know the answers to some of your questions until you have another baby (beckons you to join the club).

I think you would feel vindicated by a succesful VBAC.

Now stop beating yourself up woman!

SOH I am so not brave I have been weeping again this morning. Coming back to work has been hard it has made it more so due to the fact that casual aquaintances do not all know what happened. I find myself bumping into people and having to explain and then comfort them as they do not know what to do/say.

Think that is bang out of order from your Mum TBH. She of all people should realise how you feel about this. However if she is anything like my mum really supportive and insightful NOT she will not even realise how much that hurts.

You may never get over this but in time it will not feel so raw. A year is a very short span of time in the grand scheme of things. You will be a mum again I am sure of it. You will also try your best for a VBAC but if you do not get it you will do the best for your baby and that is all we can do as Mothers. Also it is not selfish and pathetic. Stop dissing yourself. What you feel is justifiable because it is how you feel.

I know this will impact on my future care as I also would like more "DH says no". But we will see. I can see now I am a problem case and will be treated as such. I know I had special treatment by the HV as high risk for PND. This does concern me I am even considering going for a scan if they do such a thing to check how my insides have settled down as worried about wound opening and ther being problems. If there is any sign of anything being amiss think will stop at the 3. If looks okay to go then may consider another. DH says he is too concerned for my health both physical and mental if I were to have another, but I worry for my mental health if I do not IYSWIM. I think I feel I should be the mum of 3 and am not but then again if I had another I would feel I should be the mum of 4 and so on before you know it you would be referring to me as LG&Ts clone, although much older, a slattern, more haggard and not a domestic goddess.

Sorry think it was me that alerted LG&T on the May thread. Oops, you know she talks sense though. Even though she is a hussy.

Showofhands, I had a traumatic birth and have suffered with PMT since then. I didn't want anything to do with son until he was over a year old. However, I am now getting help and things are much better and I love my little monster to bits. I just wanted to reassure you that it does get easier, and better, with time. It took a long time for me to get over the birth, mentally, and I still have to force myself to not think about it, but it's ok now.

The story I linked to, she had one more birth after the csection one - here - I know of loads of homebirth mums who've had at least one baby get into a difficult position when their other babies didn't. It happens, sometimes.

Is an independent midwife an option for you next time? Could be a small price to pay for peace of mind, not being treated as 'high risk'

Hussy indeed!

< stalks back to dungeon >

Show of hands is there something you want to tell us?

In time there will be charley I am sure

SOH, it's time for you to go and seek some professional help. I'm sure someone here can point you in the right direction. This is affecting you too deeply now and you need to deal with it.

Fwiw I got to 10cm and pushed with dd and ds1 and no matter what I did, they wouldn't come out. The mw said with ds1 if I had managed to get that far with dd then in theory I should manage to do it again with ds1 and I did. That in itself is an achievement. Yes I feel disappointed about them both ending in an em cs and every now and again I feel quite about it, especially when I read a lovely birth story like TYG's. Deep down I am gutted I couldn't do it 'properly'. But each time it didn't stop me from trying again, and the second time I did feel more in control. Would you have rather carried on in your quest for a natural delivery and risked M's life? Sorry that's a stupid question.

You are an absolutely natural mother. You are destined to have more gorgeous children. I am certain you will and second time round your delivery may still not go according to plan, but I'm certain you will feel more in control.

SOH, something very similar happened to my friend - I think her DS was a 'brow presentation' IIRC? Basically he sas trying to come face first and just wouldn't have fitted any lower down and was too low to get back up to a better position IYSWIM. Hope your notes can maybe help a bit.

hey wow i think you did incredibly well. I often asked the questions why not so much in labour but in pregnancy. Had many problems while pregnant, in n out of hospital and delivered prem and why?? no idea. Why the problems??? no idea. after many tests before and after birth still no answer!!! I think we all get so excited about being pregnant, having the birth we want that we often forget that we are only human and every person has a different body that reacts differently to things. But in the end I just console myself with the fact Im holding a gorgeous lo who loves me UNCONDITIONALY. I would still chase notes as they may hold something that could help explain why tho for you. Enjoy lo!!

Can I thank all who have posted. I too had a totally unplanned birth at a time I was not expecting it. I too have gone through all the worries and fears and still get them from time to time, although they are getting less frequent. Hoping to have another wonderful child like my first in the future. But still worry about all the problems reoccuring. Suggest if you want another to make an appointment with an appropriate consultant before you get pregnant to discuss the possibilities for the pregnancy. From research into the problems I experienced the chances of them reoccuring are less in later pregnancies (except one which will reoccur more severly - but I could cope with that one and it was manageable). The best thing of all is to talk about it in anyway you feel comfortable, so well done in posting this message it is a good start. Wishing you all the best in the future.