Would any kind MNers be willing to talk to me about my dd's birth? I would like to move on from it.

[ShowOfHands]

I appreciate that this seems a rather self-indulgant thing to do but I feel that I need to put what happened behind me and I know that to do this I need to talk it through. I have tried the Birth Trauma website but floundered rather in the tales of other births. DH has tried to talk it over with me but obviously our experiences of the day are very different and he adopts an attitude of believing it is best just to leave it in the past. I am carrying around a lot of guilt about the birth and it is affecting not only the way I parent but my decision to have more children. I want a big family but I am so frightened of birth that I'm avoiding any physical contact with DH. The idea of getting pg again makes me physically panic. I cannot think about it.

What I want is something that isn't possible. I want somebody to tell me why the birth went the way it did. I don't understand so much of what happened. I am being sent a copy of the notes but am not hopeful of finding any answers as I read my postnatal notes and they were a lengthy list of lies and conjecture.

The birth briefly:

My waters broke suddenly at 39 weeks and contractions started within half an hour. I was having a home waterbirth. Took 20hrs to get to 10cm and my contractions stopped. I got out of the pool to re-start them and wasn't allowed back in. Contractions started again lasting 2 minutes and with a 30 second break inbetween. I had no urge to push but was urged to push with each contraction. I pushed for nearly 5 hours in every conceivable position. DD did not descend at all. I transferred to hospital. Dishy surgeon examined me and said em cs was necessary as dd was stuck (obviously). I begged them to try something else. Forceps wasn't possible because of her position apparently and they said they would try a ventouse in theatre but not to get my hopes up. Had a spinal block, 3 surgeons attempted a ventouse delivery. They swore a lot and pulled me down the bed with the effort. No luck. I had an em cs. The surgeon who delivered dd said there was no conceivable way she could have been born naturally and not to believe it was anything I did.

See, not that traumatic really and I'm being a bit of a baby. Please don't shout at me. I was so grateful to have a happy and healthy baby and I feel selfish for fixating on the birth. I planned a home waterbirth, skin to skin and immediate breastfeeding. I didn't see dd as she was born and she was taken away to be checked because of PROM and jaundice. They brought her back clean and dressed. She didn't feed for 24hrs and was sleepy because of the jaundice and it took a long time to establish a good bf relationship.

I have so many questions and I know you can't answer them but they go round my head in the middle of the night when I've been having flashbacks. Why was she stuck? What happened? The ventouse tears and scars are by her right ear so her head was on its side I presume? How did this happen? Why couldn't my body deliver her? Why didn't I have the urge to push? Is there something wrong with me that means I can't deliver naturally? Will I never have that urge to push that people talk about?

I feel selfish and self-absorbed but this is affecting my sex life, my confidence and my plans to have any more children.

Please, if you can spare a minute I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Soh, was your baby large? It does sound as though the position she was in might have affected the birth if the ventouse mark was by her ear. It should ideally be at the top towards the back. Try pulling a jumper on with your chin on your chest, then try doing it with your head tilted to one side, it is much more difficult. (well unless the head hole is too big) It is much the same with giving birth, if a babys head is tilted or tipped back they don't always come through.

And wow, you pushed for 6 hours, that is amazing, if anyone dared to write poor maternal effort in the notes, they should be shot. Also it sounds pretty traumatic to me, and as a midwife when I am present at births that involve failed intrumental deliveries and end up being sections, sometimes I feel traumatised and i don't have to endure the physical recovery or pain.

Oh my brother's an utter twonk. His dw had a baby a couple of months after me, sneezed and it fell out, was doing marathons later the same day, lost all her baby weight in a week etc.

The birth up until the hospital bit was fine. The VEs were traumatic. The surgeon had two hands inside me mid-contraction and I swore like I've never sworn before. He described me as 'a bit fraught' to the anaesthetist. I felt like a silly little failure. The postnatal monkeys who made me clean up my own trail of blood off the hospital floor made me feel worse.

SoH, shocked at your treatment post-natally!! When I first went for a shower 18 hours post-birth, I apologised tearfully to the mw about the blood on the floor. She laughed (kindly) and said 'My dear, we clean that up for you.'

for you.

My ds got stuck and it's fairly clear looking at him now that is was because he has a bloody big head (so does his Dad!). I pushed even though i felt no urge to push; i just did what I was told. They tried to get him out with forceps but couldn't so it was an emergency caesarian. I didn't get to see him until he was cleaned up and checked which is a big regret of mine as I resent that other people saw him as he entered the world and I didn't. BUT I don't feel at all guilty about the C section. I don't feel worried that i had no urge to push; I don't feel bad that I couldn't push him out. It's never crossed my mind to feel any of those things about the birth so it's differnent strokes for different folks. Believe me I DO find things to really worry, stress, obsess and feel guilty about, but it just so happens it's not about his birth. Even though they used the forceps incorrectly and placed them on the front and back of his head rather than over his ears and he has a bloody big dent in his head to prove it (believe me, I'm making him sound like a real ugly bugger, but he's actually totally gorgeous despite the big head, dent etc ) Even though they denied their misuse of the forceps even when all the other staff confirmed to us that the big mark on his head was indeed from the consultant using the forceps on the wrong part of his skull. Even though I had a similar birth to yours I have no guilt, worry, obsession about it. It is not the circumstances of the birth that are traumatic therefore, it is the way we react to those circumstances. Does that sound callous? I hope not. I don't mean it to; I kind of want you to know that it wasn't a bad birth; you didn't FAIL as a woman. You did what lots of us do-whatever it takes to get our children born healthily and that is what you SHOULD do. YOu would surely feel more of a failure and more guilty and stressed if you HADN'T allowed them to try and get your baby out when it was stuck by using ventouse, C section, etc. That surely would have been letting your DD down. You did what was right and she just got stuck cos things like that happen at births; it's a messy fairly random business which DOES not often go to plan.

Hi,just wanted to add whats already been said.I had a traumatic experience with DD1,so much so,that even as a Nurse I wanted to complain about it all. I even wrote the letter.Luckily I had an excellent MW who promised to go through the notes with me.She fufilled her promise,and one afternoon went through the notes and the monitor readings in detail,she told me many things that from the tracing she thought that the MW who was "in charge" of me and my labour must of suspected,I was very angry at the decisions made by the doctor,and again she explained why these decisions were made.At the end I was sobbing,my anger had completely disappeared,and I was very thankful that my DD1 had been delivered safely,the outcome was very nearly different,totally unbeknown to me.I ripped my letter of complaint to shreds afterwards.At the end of the day,whatever our expectations of how our labour "should" be,the Obstetrician has to make some dire decisions in order to ensure a safe outcome,the "buck stops with them".My MW said with experience she may have differed in opinion to the doctor,but she doesnt have to make many life or death decisions,and the doctor has to.In time you will feel better about your "Trauma" and IMO we have to try and understand how "traumatic" it is to make the wrong decision and lose either Mother and/or baby as a doctor,and how you would cope with the next time the situation becomes critical again.....I dont envy the Medical proffession.

SoH, I felt guilty and useless and I had an uncomplicated vaginal delivery without pain relief.

I was traumatised by the whole thing, kept going over and over it in my mind. It affected me the same way as a serious violent incident at work. I did get over it, but not by 'putting it behind me'.

I only pushed for three hours but, like you, I never felt the urge. Once it was too late for an epidural I was overwhelmed with pain and just wanted to give up.

I wrote out an account of it and I requested a copy of my hospital notes. Both these things helped me to process the fear and guilt. The notes reassured me that none of the professionals was blaming me.

'Easy option' - words fail me. Only option, from what you've said (other than death for both you and your baby - sorry, but it's true isn't it?). A long obstructed labour followed by emergency CS is undoubtedly the toughest way to deliver. Glad your baby is okay.

Showofhands - I had (almost) exactly the same birth 1st time as you - had all the signs of labour, but NO urge to push - which ended in 2 hours of pushing, failed ventouse and emerg C-section.
I never knew WHY this had happened until preg with no 2. They looked at notes and said it was likely bbay no 1 had looked up or to the side and so the narrow pointy part at the top of the head was not down and therefore I would not have the urge to push as there was noo pressure there

So no 2 birth - couldn't have been more different, i invested time in ante natal yoga and knew a lot more about giving birth but i basically had a 6 hour labour (inc 2 of pushing) no pain relief and he was born onto my chest - i was home intime for tea (6 hr discahrge) Iwas so well.

So i hope this gives you hope - I wasn't traumatised by birth no. 1 but it helped massively to know I couldn;t have done more to deliver her naturally

i had a first labour very like yours - trying for a homebirth, long labour (was your dd op btw? mine was). after 30 hrs i transfered in ambulance for failure to progress, augmentation, epidural, trial ventouse in theatre prepped for a section. luckily the ventouse worked for us. she was asynclitic - the bruise on her head was right over to the side.

i had issues with the midwife attending me at home and dp refused her when she came postnatally. as a result of that the supervisor of midwives came out to talk over my notes with me. i'm convinced that debriefing so close to the event was the main reason i didn't suffer long term for what was such a different both to the one i'd hoped and planned for.

as it was the whole first year was pretty tough as she had colic, feeding issues and barely slept. as a result of this and a bout of (unrelated) ptsd i suffered we couldn't even think about having another until she was nearly 3. i remember how upset i felt when all my "baby" friends were getting pg again and i knew i couldn't because i just couldn't cope with anything else.

i think tbh i blocked out some of the trauma of her birth and early months as it all came flooding back when i eventually did get pg again and it cast quite a shadow over the pregnancy. it turned out that dd2's birth was an almost exact rerun - albeit a little quicker. we transferred again from a planned hb, she was also op, i had an epidural with the same anaesthetist AND nurse as i'd had 4 years earlier BUT i did push her out - i really didn't believe i could do it, and i was high on the buzz for days.

i guess this epic tale is to let you know that you're not alone. i only pushed for 2 hrs and bet you don't think i'm a failure as a woman do you? do please try to get someone to go over your notes with you it should be cathartic. and don't let fear of a second labour being the same put you off, as although my labours were spookily similar, my experience and outcome each time was actually hugely different, partly because i allowed myself to "give up" sooner (i.e. after 24 hrs!) second time round, knowing how exhaustion hindered my recovery and probably my second stage too.

and try to take some of the supportive comments here to heart next time you're being hard on yourself - lots of people whose opinion i'm sure you respect on other things think you're fab

SOH, I just popped on and then saw this and have tears, I should have realised that through all your jokey comments you are still finding M's birth difficult to deal with.

When dd was born my tale was not so different from yours, apart from the homebirth bit, I pushed and pushed, I didn't feel any urges, she was 'ventoused' and still didn't shift. She came by em cs also. I was only in labour after being induced (she was 10 days overdue)for 12 hours but pushed for 2 hours. I too felt like a failure, I blamed my lack of understanding about childbirth, I blamed my lack of understanding about being induced, I blamed my lack of understanding about epidurals, most of all I blamed my lack of understanding full stop. I felt cheated and upset, I felt like a failure. I asked questions and they said her head had been in the wrong position when descending same as popmum and that she would never have come out naturally. It didn't make me feel any better...

I wanted another baby and I wanted to get it 'right'. I knew everything there was to know this time, I was going to have a VBAC. Ds1 was 14 days overdue, they wanted to induce, I would only let them break my waters. Good labour, not too long, I felt good. I pushed, still with no urges, he didn't come out either. Em cs no 2. I didn't feel bad this time, it all felt right. It wasn't my fault.

With J, I pleaded for a third attempt, finally someone was honest and said that after 2 attempts it was highly likely there was a physiological reason that my babies heads didn't turn at the last minute. To try again would put both of us at a very high risk. Hence elective cs.

I didn't mean to post such a long recount of my labours, I just wanted you to know what you feel is natural. You will come to turns with it and baby no 2 will come and be delivered in a different way to M. You are meant to be a mother to many, I have rarely met such a natural

Is there any way you can see an obstetrician who can find out if there is a physical reason why M's head got stuck? Then at least you would know and be able to deal with it and prepare yourself for the next 27 dc you will have.

another thought - it sounds as though your experience was particularly difficult because you didn't feel supported while you were in hospital (whereas i felt strongly that i received the best possible care even though like you i was in hospital essentially against my wishes). can you find out whether your hospital has a maternity service liason committee?

www.mslc.org.uk

if you can't easily find out from the hospital your local nct should know. they essentially gather feedback from service users and any issues you would like to raise about your postnatal care etc. should reach influential ears if you can attend a meeting or nab a member of the committee (at our hospital this includes midwives, an nct antenatal teacher and interested mums, the meetings are informal and open to all).

perhaps feeling you may be able to make a difference to mums at the hospital in future could help you to use your difficult experiences in a positive way?

Wanted to reiterate what lulumama and others have said here about your daughter's position and how that would have affected your chance of pushing her out. If a baby's head isn't well flexed and/or is tilted to one side it can make it near impossible to push him or her out. If you have no pushing urge it's usually because the baby's head isn't low enough in the pelvis to trigger it (though sometimes I listen to people's c-section stories about babies with nuchal cords and stuff, women who didn't get an urge to push, and wonder whether the woman's body somehow knows a baby isn't going to be born vaginally and so protects him or her from the full strength of spontaneous pushing contractions).

We are incredibly emotionally vulnerable during labour and immediately after and so are very open to being traumatised by other people's unthinking behaviour. The way you describe your experience in theatre, the swearing and the physical force used during the attempt at ventouse.... I found it hard to read.....no wonder you feel the way you do...............

I know I yack on about independent midwives a lot on this board but I do think it's one option perhaps you might consider if you have another baby. And that's whatever you decide to do - whether to request and elective section or to go for a home/hospital vbac. A really experienced, sensitive midwife who can counsel you during your pregnancy, go through the notes of your last birth, and be by your side before, during and after your next birth - well, it could make a very big difference to your experience next time around.

In the meantime I'm wondering if it would be a good thing for you to look into specialist counselling - you could post on the Yahoo UK midwifery board and see if they have any suggestions there as to the best person to go to for this type of help.

health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmidwifery/

Anyway - ((hugs to you)) hope the many kind voices of support on this thread are a comfort and that you can soon feel easier in yourself about your daughter's birth.

haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating...

but I think going thru the birth with a midwife (on your own first, then maybe dh could come in and sit in?) then some counselling to get your head around it would be excellent ideas.

Then start putting some money aside to pay for a doula to be with you, holding your hand through your next labour and afterwards I think it would really help to put your mind at rest about another baby.

Thank you so much for all of your lovely replies. Each and every one of them has helped me. Sorry I disappeared yesterday. DH had a burning desire to swim in a lake and needed an audience for it.

I firmly believe that my postnatal treatment directly affected the way I processed what had happened to me. Instead of a healing, restful time in hospital, I have never felt more alone, humiliated or vulnerable. DH was sent home after the birth. It was 2am, they wheeled me to the ward, put dd in my arms, put the buzzer for help out of reach, turned out the light and sodded off. I'd been awake for 50hrs or so, was still numb, traumatised and actually hallucinating that I was still in labour and the baby was talking to me. I lay there in bed whispering to dd that I was sorry over and over again and that I'd let her down. Nobody checked on me that night and I think I just lay there and cried.

It was just a catalogue of humiliation. I didn't know where my bag had gone so had no maternity pads. The lady in the next bed gave me one and I walked to the toilet and bled a bit on the floor (12 hours post op and hadn't changed my pad once). They tutted and gave me a cloth. They forgot to take my catheter out and I asked over and over again as it was nearly bursting. In the end I walked down the ward with it to the nurses' station and they told me off and removed it right there in full view of 8 other women while I sat on a plastic chair. I asked repeatedly for help with breastfeeding and they kept asking me which formula I wanted. They were quite open about not having enough time to show me and said I'd got 'until lunchtime' to get her to latch and feed or they would have to give her formula. The lady who changed the beds heard me sobbing and trying to feed a very jaundiced and sleepy baby and she stayed with me for hours helping me latch her on and showing me how it was done. She wasn't trained. Just a Mum. She came back every couple of hours that day just to help me feed dd. If it hadn't been for her I may not be bfing dd to this day. It stated quite clearly on my notes that 'I'd declined any breastfeeding help and the baby was feeding well from birth'. Absolute rubbish. It also said they checked my bp/heartrate etc regularly. They did it twice in 36 hours. They asked me if I'd had all the correct blood clotting injections after the cs. I said 'is it not in my notes?' and the doctor said oh it's so busy atm we often forget to write things down. Can you not remember what drugs you had in recovery?

I hated it. Every minute of it and I wanted to go home. I felt very much from the moment I got there that I was a 'failed homebirther' and was being frowned upon for this. They talked about me and not to me, asked dh questions about me. I consider myself a fairly erudite and intelligent woman and the loss of control of birth itself was enough to cope with without the treatment in the hospital.

I would love to hire a doula next time but finances may not permit it. I also need time to steel myself for the fight to get an hbac.

Getting it all out on here is helping so much. Thank you for bearing with me.

Reading your story is like reading my own. A very similar experience in hospital ending in an emcs. I can truly say that I felt such a failure for not doing it 'right'.

The thing that has helped to heal this for me was having my second son by vbac. Terrible as it may sound, I think of him as my 'little success' and I am so proud of having managed to do it right. Having him has helped to heal the hurt from 1st DS's birth.

I am aware that people will think that I am wrong and pathetic for feeling that I didn't give birth to my first DS. I love him more than anything else in the world, but my involvement in his birth was not a success.

You would not believe how mixed up I had felt about this, and how often I talked to my midwife during the second pregnancy about being a failure and had her say 'how can you be a failure, look at what you've got'. It was only when a very straight talking young female consultant said to me 'look, you're here, your son's here, without the emcs you'd both be dead' that I realised what a twit I was being.

So after all that waffle, just wanted to say that you're not alone and that however much we don't like what's happened it's happened for a reason and we've both been lucky enough to walk out of the hospital with a child who is well.

My advice is to read your notes, accept that what's happened isn't what you wanted to happen but that it may be different next time. Then go and give hubby a hug. Then I wish you luck for the next pregnancy (and please, please don't give up on a family for an experience that is really only on bad day in your life! ) and I hope that your second baby is a healing one too.

20 hours is a long time to labour then stop, so you were probably exhausted. It wasn't your fault at all.
If it's any comfort, I didn't get any urge to push with my first labour, my MW looked and told me with surprise that ' oooh! you are ready to push', I had my labour with Ds in a pool, but he had turned his head(so he was looking to my left)and got stuck at my pelvis. I was taken to theatre eventually, where they were, thankfully for me, able to deliver by forceps, but there had also been talk of a possible cs.
With Dd 8+ years later, I did get the urge to push and had my baby in the water pool. Please don't let this one incident spoil your future desires. It is awful that you weren't able to do things your way, but you did all you could and probably more judging by the way you come across here. Be proud that you have the achievement that is your baby and that they are healthy wanted and loved. Try to focus on the good and very positive things around your beautiful baby.
Perhaps one to one counselling may help you? chat to your GP about it all and ask them for 1 to 1.
Good luck to you.x

How did i miss this???

Now listen to me, this weekend we are going for a long beach walk with our babie and we are going to talk this through.

I am being your doula at the next birth and you are staying with me so i can look after you. I will hear nothing else about it.

You are a fabulous mother and you did everything you could to get that baby out. You know how stubborn i am with birthing babies and even i relented with the latest baby and had an epidural, stirrups and a very skilled (and bloody wonderful) Registrar who righted B's position with the ventouse and pulled him out. I was a gibbering wreck. I am sure anyone else would have cut me open and his exit would have been through the sun roof.

Now we will sort this out, tears snot and all. I am here for you always. I am off for a wee sob now (i am pregnant you know ) We will have you begging J for a bonk in no time and this lo inside me now will have a playmate as will M.

Ps you are a fab mommy and M is so gorgeous.

PPS There are not words to describe your brother but there are words to describe what i will do to him when i meet him. It involoves pliars and rocks.

SOH, your pics are gorgeous!

Show of Hands I'm so sorry for what you went through. I also am so angry still at my postnatal hospital experience. I also had a section and recieved no help with breastfeeding. In fact after being wheeled down from my section and GA, I was put on a ward with 5 other mothers - all of whom were bottle feeding their babies.

The nurses policy was to take their babies away during the night and to give them bottles when needed to allow the mothers to rest.

As I struggled groggily to get my two babies to latch on in a cramped single bed, they understandably cried as the latching proved difficult and I got tenser and tenser. I rang probably 3-4 times that night for help and by the second time was offered formula and told that was the best solution.

One of the nurses informed me the next day that I was disturbing the other mothers and that if I was determined to try and breastfeed I should find a quiet room to do it in at nighttime.

Looking back now, if I was rested and not so vulnerable I would have told her where to go. At the time I was so tired and miserable and wired from lack of sleep for several days, the section and the GA that at 1am-6am the next night I huddled by myself in the little common room trying to feed my babies and crying my eyes out.

During the day I would try and sleep and the other mothers would have the tv on, be talking around my bed and the reception desk would be competing for noise with their radio - I thought I was going mad by the end of the week - I have never been so glad as I was to get home.

When I went for my first shower I also left blood all over the shower floor. Having just fainted, I hadn't exactly had time to clean up. THe midwife who found me collapsed on the bathroom floor helped me come around and then tutted at the mess and said this would be a fine mess for someone to clear up.

I remember thinking - why do they have to be so unpleasant? So cold and heartless, like i'm just a huge inconvinenence. I asked them to show me how to change a nappy and they said if someone had time, and then carried on chatting at reception for the next half hour.

My blood pressure was sky high but the nurse doing it wasn't bothered when I said that worried me. I had a student doctor looking after my care who kept asking me about my blood transfusion (which it turned out I hadn't had) and whether my rhesus injection had been done. All my notes were also a mass of lies - I hadn't been shown how to do any of the things like bathing a baby that they'd ticked had been done and they also said that breastfeeding had been fine and fully supported!

I'm so sorry - I don't mean to hijack your thread. I wanted to just clumsily say that I understand a little the sorrow of your postnatal hospital experience - how vulnerable and miserable you feel. I'm pregnant again and dreading the hospital experience and it's a relief to just write down my feelings!

I also had a kind samaritan in a student midwife who had observed in the last few days of my pregnancy. She was the only one who could be bothered to change my pad and came and sat with me in the common room when her shift had ended on my third night of exile! I can't thank her enough for her kindness.

I wish I could get my DH to understand just how miserable it was and why I'm so worried about this time. Luckily it's a different hospital so fingers crossed it will be a whole different experience!

I'm so sorry you had a hard time, it worries me slighty that although you are obviously feeling distressed you are trying to brush off and be-little your own feelings....

'See, not that traumatic really and I'm being a bit of a baby. Please don't shout at me. I was so grateful to have a happy and healthy baby and I feel selfish for fixating on the birth.'

It was traumatic, you had been hoping and planning for the birth you wanted to have and what happened was un-known, un-expected, very traumatic and scary...it is ok to feel as you do, you and your DD had a tough time. 5 hours is a very long to be pushing you must have been exhausted.

please don't feel guilty because you and DD in the end were fine. I promise you the first steps of getting through this are accepting that it is ok to feel everything you do. When I managed to do this I felt like a huge weight had been lifted.

I had a hard first birth too, similiar in places to yours in that DD got stuck, lots of pushing baby didn't move, I was having strong contractions but no urge to push..but then it was my first baby I didn't know what it 'should' have felt like so I just carried on. Luckily forceps worked for us, unluckily it was done in an emergancy situation and there was no time for pain relief so had the procedure done just using gas and air (ouch).

DD2 is now 9 weeks old...the birth was fantastic, every went exactly to plan, I got the urge to push...my god is it an urge and it definately wasn't there the first time, my body just did it and I couldn't have not pushed even if i wanted to. She popped out in 3 pushes, took about 15 minutes I think, from me first yelling at the midwife...'I'M PUSHING!!!!'

Anyway please don't feel bad for feeling the way you do, I know it is not much comfort but many first births don't go to plan, luckily there are lots of good stories about fantastic second births....i'm sure yours will be one of them when you feel ready.

I don't have CAT but if you want to talk about this more then let me know and i'll give you my e-mail address.

And does anybody happen to know if I did have another, would it be counted as a 'first labour'? I got to 10cm and pushed a wee bit. Does that count for anything?