Why are so many women anti c-section?

[jivegirl]

Despite planning a peaceful waterbirth at home, I ended up having a very scary OP/ventouse delivery with my daugher nearly 2 years ago (delayed second stage, retained placenta, 3rd degree tear, plus internal tearing which had not healed after 6 months and required cauterising)

I have been offered a C-section and will see the consultant again to make my decision in just over a week. At present (35wks) bump is transverse, so the decision to have a section may yet be taken out of my hands. However part of me is secretly hoping the baby stays transverse so I don't have to justify having a section.

I can't understand why so many women seem to be anti-sections. It seems admitting a preference for a section is almost taboo.
I still get horrific flashbacks to delivering my daughter and can't think of anything worse than going through that again (my DP rates it as the most traumatic day of his life!! ) The thought of a calm, planned c-section sounds like bliss. Am I being naive?

I should also say that I will have excellent support from friends and family to help me cope with caring for an active toddler and a newborn in the weeks that follow - so I am sure I am luckier than many..

Would love to hear some opinions on this ladies!

Fabsmum, for goodness sake. You had a great experience giving birth - good for you. But who are you to judge other people?

I really admire women who choose to have a homebirth but it wasnt for me. I had two 'natural' births. Never again. Some women give birth easily - who knows why, and some dont.

I wouldnt hesitate to have a C section after the expereince of the OP.

And C sections are about money.....

a homebirth may also not be feasible for women who are in very rural areas far from help.

we live in an area where consultant-led care in an emergency involves a helicopter journey over a sea loch.

if there is bad weather and the chopper cannot fly and the emergency ferry cannot sail, then you'd have to hope and pray the steep and dangerous mountain pass an hour's drive north of here is open.

otherwise, your life is in God's hands, quite literally.

I have hd 2 cs, one emergency one elective, first was emergency, I put up a good fight for 28 hrs, then docs made choice, my baby was very poorly, thankfully he was well. My second was elective, I wanted natural, did all the right things, classes, but my body thought otherwise, and joint decison was made.

Although I would like to point out that someone like myself, with my first pregnancy 28 hrs, would have lost her child and possibly my own life had I been at home, so yes its a wonderful thing to homebirth but not always a great option for all, also someone like me would never be allowed to homebirth, to dangerous.

And to the op, yes there are judgy folks who think they are more motherly due to the heaving and hoing of childbirth, but I too went through hell to get my children into this world, cs do not come pain free, and the pain is still here 2 years later.

If anyone thinks its the easy option, please, no option in childbirth is easy, its Labour, for a reason,and they give you anaesthetic when they open up your abdominal wall and remove your internals for a section, nothing is better then the other, a healthy baby and mother are the best option.

I went through my induced labour with dd with the constant threat of 'you may need a c-section' hanging over me. For me it was a really scary thought, it's surgerey iykwim?

I think it can be a taboo because of the whole celebrity 'to posh to push' thing. But a vaginal birth isn't always straight forward, as the op discovered. I do think that if you can, have a vaginal birth. But if there are complications or health factors that require one, then there shouldn't be an issue. I know women who have had both positive and negative experiences with their sections. But the same could be said for my friends who have had vaginal births.

Getting back to 'normal' after having dd was really painful for me due to an extensive episiotomy that left me incredibly bruised, swollen and unable to walk for 2 weeks! Section may have been the way to go after all eh!

Swings and roundabouts if you ask me!

I'm not anti CS but I do think too many avoidable emergency CSs are taking place.

Of course it's true that a huge number of ECSs are performed to save the lives of mum and/or baby. However, too many are performed because of failure to progress. Sometimes failure to progress is going to happen no matter what and then, of course, a CS is necessary. But many are avoidable.

Far too many women go to hospital way too early and end up strapped to a bed for 12hours. First time mothers need better education on how to manage their first stage. Don't sit down on the sofa ringing your mum to tell her its started, get out for a 3mile walk! Don't go into hospital when they're 5mins apart and 'starting to hurt'. Wait until they're 2min and so bad that you actually can't catch your breath when one hits.

If you agree to get on the bed at all, do it just for an initial check. No matter how much pain you're in someone can always hold you upright.

Of course some women will always need constant monitoring but far more women get on a bed than ever need to.

I think if I'd had a traumatic first birth I may also have considered one second time around. But recovery from an uncomplicated VB is always going to be better and quicker than from an uncomplicated CS.
The thought of a CS really frightens me especially actually having to stay in hospital. but then with both my DCs I was up and home 5hours later with no stitches. I know I was lucky but I've also known many women wanted to go to hospital as soon as labour started to hurt expecting it to be imminent. Film and television don't help this misconception either.

In the end it's your choice. Your mental health as well as your physical health is important. Good luck

I totally agree about baby mags featuring disabled babies, Riven. Not with the intent of frightening mums but to show that different outcomes happen.

What I mean is that disabled children in general seem to be statistically under-represented in the media.

Hi Riven, Did you see my question to you earlier on here? Ta.

"Oh please, I dream about the US medical system. I do so want a medical system just like it."

Watch Sicko before you say anything like that again. There is not one endearing quality about American sick care.

"But, if you want to talk about statistics, can you tell me what the comparison is for waiting times? Or how about the number of obstetricians to number of babies born in a year."

I can't answer that, but can you answer these:

How many people die because they can't afford treatment?
How many people die because they didn't have permission to go to hospital?
How many people die because funding was withdrawn because they didn't tell the doctor they had a cold ten years ago?
How many people were on the waiting list in the first place?

Riven, Thanks for that. Really - 7 sections???? Blimey, and there was me worrying about 3

Jive PLEASE make your own decision with your consultant on what is right for you.
I have had elective sections for mine decision for first two taken out of my hands - breech and failed induction then had the rest electively. i am a doctor who has seen the bad side of when things go wrong - third degree tears, oxygen starved babies....
it always amazes me how judgemental other women can be of you, why we cant see a planned CS for medical reasons as a positive step forward in medicine allowing mum and baby to hopelfully emerge unscathed which might not have happened with a vaginal delivery
bTW my CSs all great, not a momoents hsistation in recommending it - if it is right for you

reading some posts on this thread makes me want to scream. Agree with those of you who believe it is the woman's decision to try and have the birth they want...what a novel idea? Most of you are reasonable....hoping for a specific outcome, but ok if another needs to happen to make sure all is well.

If fabsmum wants to remain ignorant about the problems that can result in childbirth....fine, but how dare you suggest that others should be left in the dark too? I will always know that I should have had a c-section, and I'll never have children again because I chose to try and have a vaginal birth..not from a physical perspective, but mentally can't ever go through that again. It was a horrible experience and I can't ever handle it again. Over 4 days in labor, and a horrible forceps delivery, but DD is fine so that's what counts. In the 'old days' we both would have died because she got stuck...was an op delivery.

I think it's fantastic that some women have great, problem-free vaginal births, but the judging is unbelievable of those that made different choices...either on purpose, or because of specific medical situations.

Fabsmum, I'm sorry you had a horrible experience giving birth in the US. As an American, I prefer the US way of doing things. You are wrong about our care being worse, as it's almost never a problem in the US providing you have excellent insurance coverage. I feel horrible that we don't have care for everyone, but it is completely different for the poor than everybody else, but that's the difference in the systems. Maybe the next administration will do something to make care more available to everybody, but that's another topic.
So sorry Riven to hear of your situation. You'll be in my thoughts as I think it's a miracle that DD is okay, but so sorry to hear of your case. A dear friend of mine lost a child when the midwife wouldn't listen to her and get a consultant. The mother just knew the child had stopped moving, but no one would listen and it was born with the cord around it's neck. A c-section would have a much different outcome, but the midwife played god....and oh well...

Also, have a question for cushioncover..since you're dishing out so much 'excellent' advice, what does a mom do when the contractions NEVER become regular? Just stay home and die? Seriously, your 'advice' is completely stupid...thank goodness you're not in control of any birth situations...Say you're not...

I didn't go to the hospital until almost 4 days after labor began and I was in so much pain and hadn't eaten or drank anything due to the pain. It was NOT MY FAULT that DD 'failed to progress' and it's not anyone's fault sometimes...it's just the way it is...everyone has different experiences...I just hope you don't ever had a rotten experience.....but if you do that you'll be glad you got that c-section, or whatever you need to have a safe delivery.

"You are saying that, in particular, pregnant women should not be allowed a choice in the way in which they chose to give birth."

I don't know what planet you live on expat but these are the realities of public funded health care in the UK: there is a finite pot of money which the government is able and willing to invest in maternity care.

At the moment there simply isn't the money to provide elective c-sections for large numbers of women who have no medical need of them (by the way - women who are phobic about birth are currently included in that group that are considered to have 'medical need' of the option of operative birth).

In fact there isn't enough money to ensure that postnatal wards are properly staffed or that women in labour can get one to one care at the moment.

If there is money to be spent it needs to be spent on improving the outcomes for births. Do you not agree with this?

Spending it on elective c-sections for low risk mums will not lead to better outcomes for mothers and babies: it will lead to higher maternal and infant mortality and morbidity.

Improving staffing on both labour and postnatal wards, providing better screening in pregnancy, and giving women the chance to labour in cleaner birth environments WILL make a difference to maternal and infant mortality and morbidity, and therefore if there is money to be spent that's where it needs to go.

In an ideal world where there was unlimited money to go around then yes - let everyone have elective sections if they want, whether they had medical need of them or not. But in a system like the NHS where healthcare is rationed then choices have to be made.

"Fabsmum, for goodness sake. You had a great experience giving birth - good for you. But who are you to judge other people?"

I didn't have a 'great experience' - I had three difficult labours, including one forceps birth (followed by a postnatal infection that made me quite ill), a shoulder dystocia and a 50 hour labour. I did have very good care though from someone I knew and trusted for my second and third, and that made the experience bearable for me and is probably the reason I wasn't left traumatised.

"I really admire women who choose to have a homebirth but it wasnt for me. I had two 'natural' births. Never again. Some women give birth easily - who knows why, and some dont."

No - homebirth isn't for everyone. You need to be where you feel safe, and for many people hospital represents safety.

Please don't assume though that all women choose homebirth because they've had 'easy' labours in the past, or that all women at home have easy labours. I know many people who've chosen a homebirth because of difficult and upsetting labours in hospital first time around - they can't bear to go back. I also know many people who've had long, challenging labours at home.

And before anyone else jumps on me and starts shouting about 'natural birth nazis' etc, - please read what I've actually said. I'm not making a case for c-sections to be made unavailable or for all women to be made to labour at home: if a woman needs to have a c-section to give birth safely then that's what she needs.

riven& did you see my post re how to get your issues around your birth listened to? a friend recently came to the MSLC to discuss her care and the issues surrounding it.. it might be a good way to get some answers and to be listened to

TinkerBellesMum

So you're the expert about the US healthcare system? Yea, right you got that from Sicko. Watch Sicko and that's all you need to know about the system, right? Sicko says the UK system is fab, so then why so many threads on mumsnet complaining about one's GP or dirty hospitals? Seriously, my friends in the US with excellent healthcare think the UK system is better until they hear about my experiences...they're in shock because hospitals in the US are CLEAN...no dirty maternity wards. No wards, as almost all are private rooms or at the least semi-private rooms.

Tell us where you got your bad care in the US and what hospital refused you medical care? You don't make up stuff without knowing firsthand now do you?

Our system is not universal healthcare for all and that sucks if you are poor or lost your job that provides healthcare. However, public emergency rooms can not turn down a patient who comes needing care. It's not perfect, but don't believe all the media crap you read about.

If you, or a close friend or relative, has NOT personally dealt with the US system, then don't pass judgment. That's like saying everyting I read in the British media is true, because it's printed or because it's on the Internet.

The British system is wonderful if you have a true emergency or a straightforward situation, but I can't believe that GP's are surprised when patients ask questions, a lot of questions. That is expected in the US. Also, we don't ration care. Another myth is that poor people don't have care. Medicaid is available for the very poor so they get care too. The biggest problem is the working poor...those that don't have a job that provides healthcare,but they make too much $$ to get the special assistance. My cousin is still paying for her surgery so I know first-hand the problems with the US. If NHS is so great, why do I read all the problems on Mumsnet? Everything is great, right? Know what? Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

Let's be glad that the US and UK have the healthcare that it does.

I am not anti c-section for other women but i would rather have stick pins in my eyes than have had one.

I am terrified of needles and scared shitless of the likes of epidurals etc so a vaginal delivery was much less scary for me.

I think really you have to go with whatever happens on the day. After 66 hours of contractions, being sick / heaving with every contraction, not having a wink of sleep all that time, having my waters broken to find meconium in them, baby objecting to the drip to speed things up and then still only being 4cm dilated I was probably relieved to have a c section. I was very lucky with my recovery and was driving after 4 weeks.

Things do not always go to plan and I firmly believe that when it comes to labour day (or days in my case) you have to be open minded about pain relief etc.

If I have another baby I would probably like to go down the elective route because we don't know why things did not go right for me first time and I would not want to go through all that again. However, if the consultant doesn't agree then I have to go with that as they are qualified best to know these things.

What is Sicko?

Incidentally, my sisters who live oin welfare in the US have better medical care than I do on the NHS. And I pay a whole lot more for the NHS.

In America,I can choose my doctor, I don't wait weeks to get an appointment. And, I see real doctors when I get there. What more could I ask for?

I hope we don't change our medical system with the next adminstration because the UK has shown me that socialised medicine leads to inferior care for everybody -- including the poor.

"fabsmum wants to remain ignorant about the problems that can result in childbirth....fine, but how dare you suggest that others should be left in the dark too?"

No expat - I didn't say that 'women should be left in the dark' about possible problems during childbirth.

Women have a right to good antenatal education where they learn about what happens during labour and during operative and instrumental birth. They need to know the signs of pre-eclampsia and what to do if their waters rupture prematurely or they experience bleeding. All basic stuff. They need to know how to reduce their chance of tearing, and how to give themselves the best chance of achieving a normal birth. They need to know about the pros and cons of the pain relief that will be available to them, their options for the third stage of their labour, the sorts of monitoring that they might be offered. They need to know the things they can do to speed their recovery after both vaginal and instrumental births.

You however, seem to be arguing that someone should sit women down and go through ALL the possibilities of things going wrong in childbirth - including things I presume like cord prolapse, amniotic fluid embolism, placental abruption, catastrophic perineal damage, post-partum haemmorhage etc, etc, etc.

Exactly how would this be fitted in to women's antenatal care do you think? Would midwives give women this information one to one during routine antenatal appointments, or would you just have big lectures with nice, graphic slides of birth injuries? And once you'd worked all these women up into a state of utter terror ( because lets face it, most pregnant mums are pretty anxious anyway) what would you say to them? How would you reassure them? Given that the vast majority wouldn't have any option but to have a vaginal birth anyway? What would giving this information achieve? How would it contribute to their chances of having a safe, happy experience of birth?

"You are wrong about our care being worse, as it's almost never a problem in the US providing you have excellent insurance coverage"

It's not just me saying there is a problem with maternity care in the US - there are LOTS of people who say this, and the maternal and neonatal mortality and morbidity figures bear this out. The US spends three times as much money per maternity as most European countries and has much poorer outcomes. Those are the facts - like it or lump it.

"why we cant see a planned CS for medical reasons as a positive step forward in medicine allowing mum and baby to hopelfully emerge unscathed which might not have happened with a vaginal delivery"

Loud scream while banging head against wall.

There is not one person on this thread, including me, who has any concerns about planned CS for those women for whom it's medically indicated! AAAAAAAAARGGHHHHHHHH!

'No expat - I didn't say that 'women should be left in the dark' about possible problems during childbirth.'

Nor did I ever use that term.

You have misquotede me. Please read posts properly before addressing posters personally.