Sad/worried about c section /microbiome worries

[Rooandtwo]

Hello

So I feel like I’ve posted a lot recently as I have tried to cling to the hope of somehow getting to have a vaginal birth, or at least go into labour despite my baby presenting as breech at 38 weeks. Today I went for an attempted (but unsuccessful) ecv with who I believe was a very skilled consultant who was fantastic and has really helped me to start accepting that I will have a c section next week. He believes the reason the ecv failed may be due to a mildly heart shaped uterus or similar, and so I feel a little better just knowing that this is most likely a problem with me and not with the baby. I am not considering a vaginal breech birth because this is my first and I have found the evidence of increased risk in this department convincing.

One reason I think I’m struggling (abject fear of c section/cutting/surgery whilst awake aside) is that my mum had two very natural straightforward births with me and my brother. I’ve also spent time on hypnobirthing and a lot (in hindsight maybe too much) of research and now it feels like I can’t meet hardly any of the needs I have got into my head that my baby has. In particular, I’m so saddened by the research that suggests how a baby’s gut bacteria is compromised by c section and the time spent in hospital. I’m worried the recovery will compromise my ability to compensate for this loss, or to breast feed etc. I also know this is somewhat control freak/perfectionistic of me. I felt I could carry and birth my child largely independently and now to know I can’t do that has left me reeling.

I know all of this can be processed I’m just struggling to get there I suppose. It’s been a very tearful week. I hope this is my last support seeking post, it’s just become hard to find people who really understand. There’s a lot of ‘so long as the baby is healthy that’s all that matters’ noise around me, and I am of course so grateful for that and for the fact I have been able to carry my own child even. But this turn of events has really crushed my confidence so I still do sometimes worry something may be wrong. I also feel guilty for the ecv now it has been unsuccessful - but it felt that I had to do everything I could to get what I still feel would’ve been the baby’s best start in life. I have managed to accept that the experience of child birth was for me, and facing my fears of surgery is something I will of course do for the well-being of my baby, I am just still struggling to regain a comfortable perspective and not to feel so heartbroken at what, for me, feels like a lot of losses to what I hoped my child to have as an entry to the world.

I hope this makes sense to someone and doesn’t just sound like obsessive spiralling. As always, grateful for any replies. I really hope one day I’m someone who has supportive words to offer others here.

Breast feeding and skin to skin contact also help build a healthy microbiome.
With good support there is no reason to think you won't be able to breast feed after a c-ection, it can be hard to establish for any new mum and the biggest difference to success is good support and advice.

3 c sections all breastfed whilst I was still in table being sawn up. All have 100% school attendance very healthy . All alive and undamaged because my birth was very safe.
You need to see the results of when a birth gos wrong and the consequence of having a damaged child really to appreciate what c sections offer. I'm guessing you have not!
In the nicest way Op you need to get over this ideal birth you have in your head.
I had seen through work what a bad birth meant so for me I was very grateful to be offered C-section and can honestly say they were the most wonderful experiences of my life.
You need to move on if you want to have the best experience. currently you will be upset about the birth of your child not being your perfect whilst another women who is grateful will have nothing but joy at her birth and healthy baby. You will be upset post natally the other women will be filled with joy. Your baby will have an upset mother the other baby will have a smiling happy mother. The birth is only the start it's, what comes after that actually counts. Assuming everyone comes out safely!

@testtrout ... I'm sure you meant sewn up. Oh auto correct, what are you doing to poor op! 😬😆

Very wise words though @testtrout - completely agree. ☺️

I was a c section and breast fed very well. My DH was the same. He is outrageously healthy and an excellent sportsman. I have mild asthma but that’s inherited - my dad is badly asthmatic. Fortunately, he left before I was born and I was raised with dogs and horses, including dogs in the bed from age 5, and I’m sure that’s why my asthma is much milder as I was constantly exposed to dirt and dander.

I could have written your post last year. I could write a long, thoughtful response but the most helpful thing to say is that I got over it incredibly quickly (ditto the c section physically!) I’ve found having a baby has completely reset my ability to go with the flow, and yes, genuinely believe that a healthy baby and mum is all that matters after birth.

I’m glad I did colostrum harvesting, although I knew DS would likely go into NICU and that does make establishing breastfeeding harder than having them next to you on the antenatal ward.

I've had 3 C-sections for 3 severely premature babies and have established breastfeeding with all of them. As soon as you're able to after the section, begin breast massage as well as feeding and holding baby skin to skin as much as possible.

How much of your 'research' is based on peer-reviewed scientific publications, rather than magazine/sensationalist articles? I'm hugely Type-A, but found that I need to use proper evidence for my research - not tabloid fodder.

I think it's worth re-framing it for yourself, you can still use hypnobirthing techniques, harvest colostrum ahead of the birth, choose some music to play during or whatever will help you relax.

Not many births follow our plans, but it's not a disaster.
I had an EMCS with dc2 after preparing for a vaginal birth with hypnobirthing (DSs massive head had other plans!). I had a very detailed birth plan that also accounted for EMCS and midwives, nurses and doctors were all really good with following it.
My hypnobirthing prep did include C-sections and interventions, they don't mean it all goes out the window and it really helped me not panic in the moment. In the end baby was delivered safely which was the ultimate goal and it didn't matter how we got there.

Because I knew I wanted to bf i was given baby quickly and had the first feed, I'd also collected colostrum ahead of birth so he had that. Baby was taken to SCBU not long after birth, unrelated to the EMCS, and I was supported to pump while I couldn't BF and then able to feed as soon as he could be out of the incubator and established bf quickly from then- the c-section didn't affect that at all.
A very different experience from dc1s uneventful vaginal birth, however I really struggled to establish bf after that.
Neither had any noticeable differences overall in terms of biomes or whatever else.

In terms of my recovery, I think it was a week or so before I was walking properly/driving after the vaginal birth and maybe 2 weeks after the EMCS but I was able to care for both from birth. Everyone recovers differently but a c-section doesn't necessarily mean an extended period of not being able to look after baby, just take it at your own pace.

My eldest was a vaginal birth, my youngest was a planned homebirth. I had everything set up and signed off and was excited for it, went to my last routine midwife appointment and had to be blue lighted to hospital for an emergency c-section. I had no idea that I was unwell, let alone that severely unwell so it was a shock to say the least. I was able to breastfeed, but my baby was very small so needed a little help in the first 2 days while the milk was coming in properly, but that's quite common for all breastfed babies not just c-section babies.

C-sections do carry risks - but as you've seen so would a breech vaginal birth. The risks will be weighed against the benefits and you'll be given the information you need to make an informed choice on what's best for you and the baby. It took me a long time to get around the fact that I will never have rhe homebirth I had planned but without a c-section both me and my daughter would have died. She's now 3 and I can count on 1 hand the amount of times she's been properly ill (more than just a cold) so I wouldn't say her health has been compromised drastically.

I also wasn't able to have skin-to-skin immediately or have the first breastfeed straight away either because we both needed some attention, so while that wasn't ideal, I was still able to breastfeed.

Isn't there something about wiping your vaginal fluid on c section babies to help with their microbiome? I haven't looked into this, so amn't necessarily recommending it, but in your shoes I would definitely read up on it.

In terms of your feelings about birth, can you reframe it? You say you felt you could do pregnancy and birth largely independently, and technically you still can. You are CHOOSING to have a section in response to the additional risks of breech for a first baby. This is a very valid choice (and probably one I would have made too) but it is your CHOICE. It's a positive choice. Try to see it as your choice.

BF etc is perfectly possible with a c section. Tons of women do it.

If it helps, yes there are down sides to a section, but there are also some plus sides. No tearing for a start! I couldn't sit down for a week after number two. And pretty sure lots of women get prolapses due to damage to the vaginal canal. So at least you can scrub those nasties out.

Hope everything goes well for you.

You can do things like co-bathing for the microbiome. But also, kids just pick up thr natural bacteria etc normally just while doing stuff.

When my DD started walking barefoot around 12-14m, I noticed her little feet started to smell very slightly of smelly feet! She'd obviously picked up the normal human feet germs.

We co-bathe sometimes, share towels sometimes etc. She's picking up my biome that way.

Ps I had a traumatic birth ending in emcs, had sepsis and felt I was dying... but I breastfed for two and a half years! It's not really related for me

I've had 3 sections (1 emcs, 2 elcs) & I've had no issues at all. DC3 started breastfeeding within 15 minutes of birth in the recovery room & took to it so easily.

We were only in hospital for around 30 hours from when I arrived at 7am to have him & left the following day after lunch.

I was driving within 2 weeks & doing the weekly shop at 4 weeks.

He thrived, had no ill effects & I had no complications at all.

He's now 5 & has a very strong immune system.

Honestly I wouldn't worry about it.

After my horrific attempt at a natural birth for DC1 which ended in a emcs, I would never have had another child if I couldn't have gone straight for a elcs.

Hi mama, whatever you're feeling is ok. I had my home birth planned and at 38 weeks he was confirmed to be transverse and I had a planned Caesarian.

He was unwell so much in his first year of life despite having breastfed him for 15 months.

Second baby, VBAC planned, but was an EMCS. I couldn't breastfeed him as his latch was poor and no support during covid, he was formula fed and never ill.

People say that a vaginal birth stops them from being "well" or breastfeeding makes them well. Two things that have not happened to me.

I hope you're ok. I struggled lots postnatally both times. Sending hugs. All will be well, I promise xx

Mine had GBS, despite being a CS.

o/p I was where you are. These are perfectly valid worries. People saying “healthy baby” etc don’t help.

it’s ok to feel the way you do. It took me a long time to get over the feelings I had from not giving birth- and yes, I was said mine “were delivered” as I never felt I had given birth.

I went absolutely full on with breastfeeding as a consequence, I was determined to make it work and do something “naturally”. It was fucking hard!

it’s completely normal to feel like this. Accept it, and move on with your baby.

My eldest was a vaginal birth. It ended in a fourth degree tear. Right from front all the way through to back. I needed extensive surgery as also tore my uterus. I also needed a blood transfusion and several other drugs after. I had back to back infections on the stitches and was in a complete mess. It has left me with a prolapse which will never go away. He had a fair few problems feeding but is now a strapping three year old.

My second was ELCS. The birth was an absolute dream. Minimal blood loss. Up and about 24hours after home in two nights (my choice it could have been one) baby feeds well and was straight into breast after birth.

You just don't know how things are going to go

Hope you can use some of the hypno birthing stuff to come to terms with whichever way it goes.

I agree with this, I felt exactly the same and I don’t think people anecdotally telling you their child is healthy and never has a day off school is helpful!

I also went big on breastfeeding in a way to “compensate” for not having had a “natural” birth. I didn’t need to. They would have been ok if I hadn’t put myself under pressure to do this (twins so much harder).

as others have said - some of your post isn’t helpful. i also had a CS - this has got nothing to do with whether you “piss yourself” or not. Pelvic floor muscles weaken with age, menopause and many other reasons.

I think it's worth re-framing it for yourself, you can still use hypnobirthing techniques, harvest colostrum ahead of the birth, choose some music to play during or whatever will help you relax.

Yes - this. I had learned hypnobirthing hoping for a vaginal delivery and used the techniques to calm me through the c section.

Completely fine and natural to feel the way you're feeling. It's really rubbish when you're expecting things to go one way, and they wind up going another. I've had it to different extents with both the births of my children now, so I get it. Time has so far been the greatest healer, but also reaching out and talking about it.

On an anecdotal note, DC1 was born vaginally and DC2 born by C-section. My milk came in day 3 both times. Successfully BF DC1 until 2, and still BFing 13mo DC2. Can't really compare health, as we went into lockdown when DC1 was 6 months old, while DC2 has been exposed to all the bugs DC1's nursery breeds then DC1 brings home....

I hope you are starting to feel a bit better about the prospect of your C-section.

A planned section is a good way to give birth. It's the best way for a breech baby.

There are lots of issues to weigh up in providing optimal birth support, but this is a clear one. A calmly planned section is the safest route for your baby.

You'll make all kinds of decisions through this child's life where you'll have to pick one option even though it'll exclude other good stuff. There's a whole anxiety industry blowing pregnancy and birth way out of proportion. These are just first steps in a lifetime of care you'll give this baby. Sometimes you'll be able to optimize absolutely everything, but mostly you won't. You'll make the best you can out of every circumstance.

Hello all

I’m sorry it’s taken me some time to come back to this - saw my midwife again this morning and then promptly fell asleep when I got home. But also I wanted to read through everything and the responses have just kept growing. I’m honestly overwhelmed by so many people taking the time to share and to be supportive. It honestly does really help.

I hope and think it was clear to most people that I totally can see that in a few weeks all this will seem like a small deal in the scheme of things. I realise that a huge amount of what I’m feeling is the strength of my hormones at the moment, the shock of such a big change of plans (albeit that I should arguably have been prepared for) and the qualities of my personality that I’m less proud of (perfectionism/ type a/ anxious). All those last things also represent the things I worry will be my weaknesses as a mum so I have been a bit stuck over the last week or so in a cycle of feeling these things and then beating myself up for feeling them and wasting the last few weeks of my pregnancy doing so and inflicting these feelings on my baby whilst they (don’t know the sex) are still inside me. It’s also been difficult to start to feel better whilst being gripped by the uncertainty and the ongoing efforts until yesterday to get baby to turn. I don’t wish to get into peoples views of ECV because I know I’m finding it distressing enough already, but having had it and it been unsuccessful I am feeling very guilty for doing so - before hand I was very much stuck in a cycle of wondering if I was enduring the procedure in order to try and get the best start for my baby, or putting my baby through something rather than accepting what the baby was trying to tell me. This has been an additional source of worry and continues to be now - I’m still worried about the babies well-being in relation to my choice to have this and that’s also bringing guilt. It’s just been a very hard couple weeks in which I’ve been in limbo and I’m now trying to get to where I need to be before the op now we know what will be. In the end I know that we process things in our own time, not because of the pressure we put on ourselves or our own self judgement.

My midwife has been very supportive this morning. I’m also overwhelmed by the kindness of all the staff I’ve met at my hospital despite what a full on job they do. Everyone is always so supportive and caring. I consider myself lucky in numerous ways and although comparing my experience to other womens is not part of why I feel that, I hope that it’s also evident that I’m not for a second thinking that vaginal births are straight forward or that I in any way judge any woman’s decision to have a c section for their own reasons. I only ever meant to represent my feelings, irrational and overwhelming though they are.

I will make use of the Hypnobirthing skills in theatre I’m sure. In relation to the vaginal seeding, from what I have read this seems still theoretical rather than an established way to compensate for the differences from vaginal birth. I am trying to look into all these things without them becoming obsessive in trying to claw back what I can control so to speak. We have a date for the caesarian and it feels like there’s little time left. So I’m trying to find a balance of researching a new birth plan but also trying to just process and enjoy the last few days of pregnancy.

Apologies for the wall of text but I wish I could reply individually to so many of you. I feel so much less alone for all the kind words. Thank you 🙏

Have you talked to your midwife about your mental health? Your description of your worries sounds exhausting for you.

As a parent you're going to have to make a million choices for your child. I can guarantee you won't always make the best choice, but you will always make the best choice you could have with the information you have. You need to find a way to accept your choices (even when you have limited ones) and not return to them later. I don't know what the answer is for that.

I know I've looked back on choices I've made with new information and thought I could have done something differently.

This is such a beautiful post @SaltyGod 😭
My EMCS was 9 years ago, but it's still such a comforting read.

OP, I completely get your sadness (I too did the hypnobirthing/NCT/was going to breathe my baby out etc ended up with an EMCS) , but I promise, promise, promise that time and your beautiful, healthy baby will more than make up for not getting the birth you envisioned.

I had an elective section with number 2 and it was so beautiful - peaceful & calm. The best day of my life (honestly, even with the major surgery).