Caesarean for "stupid" reasons?

[GloriaInEleusis]

Following on from this thread, I just wondered how many people have caesareans for stupid reasons?

I've had two, one crash and one planned. Neither was for a stupid reason.

but you could still have problems with woundhealing, etc...you could still contract mrsa more easily etc...

"Although have to say (and am quoting from another Mumsnetter) the fact that my fanjo remains in pristine condition is really rather nice!"

I'm just fascinated to know which MN-er is in close enough proximity to be able to comment on the pristinity of your fanjo!

ooo er missus!

(it isn't me...I may only live round the corner, I've seen her front vestibule -leads straight to the kitchen- and her back passage - leads to the garden - but I've never been near her fanjo!)

I had a homebirth for my dd 3 months ago but actively considered an elective because I was so scared of a botched vaginal birth with forceps, tearing, incontinence etc

Everyone should have a CHOICE and I think that natural and fluffy vs elective cs are actually much closer together on the spectrum - both are trying to exert control over the birth environment and lower or remove the chances of the worst case scenario (traumatic vaginal birth).

With the NHS in the state it is I can see why an elective cs can be attractive - consultant and anaethetist (spelling?) around to hand. Ditto with homebirth you have a midwife with you constantly. Both are avoiding the chaotic giving birth alone or in a corridor of a hospital with no monitoring or assistance!

well, now I've read this and the thread that started it, and the only thing I have to say, as a first-timer-no-nothing, is that this level of argument has done nothing to allay my fears of either a vaginal birth or a c/s.

i wonder if anyone remembers that a lot of us come on here for advice and reassurance and hearing all these judgements being bandied around along with the terrible birth stories/consequences of vaginal birth/csection really doesn't help.

mumsnet has at times felt like a really major support to me, now you lot have just made me want to cry.

and yes thats pathetic, but my first baby is due in just over a month and I'm scared shitless.

will post this on the other thread too, just to be fair

chunkypudding, I for one haven't meant to worry anyone, both cs's and vaginal births can be wonderful.

Unfortunately with both there will always be someone with a horror story.

I can sympathise with you, as I personally had an awful cs, but I also had one that went perfectly fine, and am now panicing probably as much as you (if not more with the increased possibilities of uterine rupture) about ym impending VBA2C.

The point I was trying to make is that a cs is surgery and a nedical procedure that IMO should not be given without medical reasons to back it up, that's all.

Good Luck with the birth of your LO.
I hope it is all you want it to be.

CP - I had an emergency section after a long labour. The birth itself was good - all very calm, not "emergency'-like IYSWIM. It was explained to me very well. It was the pain during recovery afterwards that I found very hard - mainly because I had no family support.

I had a vaginal delivery with dd and the birth was very special, but harder work. However the recovery afterwards was fine - just tiredness and no pain.

rochwen i would be interested to see those figures. for el c.s compared to v.b or home birth etc. as perhaps i have been misinformed

scottishmummy yes a live birth is what is wanted, without a shadow of a doubt, but the mode of delivery and how the mother feels about the delivery is also important, i have supported many women who have been left traumatised after birth for many reasons, and being told they should be grateful for the baby being ok is not always that comforting.

chunkypudding i am sorry that you are feeling so terrified.. is there anything that is worrying you in particular or is it a genereal fear? a certain level of apprehension is of course normal as you approach the birth. some inspiring reading might be of use.. sheila kitzinger, ina may gasking, michel odent, penny simkin..

camilla - the majority of births result in live birth, over 90% of birth plans do not go to plan. Yes for the minority of women who experience trauma distress debrief and counselling if reqd is an invaluable resource.

POSTED ON OTHER THREAD BUT...

I was nearly born by C-section. My mum went to the hospital on 4th Sep and found out I was breech. She is 5ft 2. They told her to come back for a section on the 5th, she said can I not come in on the 6th as it is my birthday on the 5th. Hospital agreed. Mum went into slow labour on the way home, she thought she was just a bit poorly. In fact a police man saw her doubled over on the road near the hospital and offered her a lift home. Her waters broke the following morning properly, she was taken to the hospital and too far along to have a section. I was born naturally, feet first, weighing 10lbs 3oz.

When I was pg, I found out DD was breech. I could either have a section, or have DD turned, or have a natural delivery.

Mum told me NOT to consider a breech, she said she found it terrible with me even though I was her 2nd.

I opted for turning, but I started suffering from high blood pressure and protein in urine.

In the end, due to these issues and feeling stressed, and at the consultants influence, I had a section.

Weak excuse?

Well I had 2 elective sections.

I don't know why people use the term elective to mean non-medical. That's not what it means. It just means it doesn't happen as a result of an emergency, it's pre-booked. Mine was pre-booked, because the consultant advised that given the amount of distress DS was already showing in the womb, going through labour would be very dangerous and could result in brain damage or death. So I elected for a caesarean whcih was done the next day. I did have

oops, it sent before I'd finishd - I did have a choice, but I weighed up the risks and it was a no-brainer.

In defence of the much-maligned instrumental delivery: I've had two ventouse births, one after an exhausting 2-day labour with epidural, syntocin and episiotomy, one after a fast labour (no pain relief) with meconium in waters and sudden foetal distress, second degree tear. I'm very glad not to have had a CS (came pretty close with ds1) - the thought of the recovery scared me and, don't ask, I really wanted to do it vaginally. Despite the interventions, neither birth was traumatic as such - because I had fantastic care during them, and also because I recovered very quickly, especially with ds2. Both dses appear to have been unscathed by the ventouse. Nobody wants an instrumental delivery, but they are not always traumatic.

also ve v interested in those figures rochwen altho tbh I wouldn't like to start counting the pennies on women's birth choices, it's not like it's such a huge amount of money in the greater scheme of things.

my c section was for the silly reason that my obs didn't want to stay up half the night to see if my induced labour would progress further, though that's not what she said of course! that's what you get with private healthcare.

Just thinking some more about my births and remembering that despite the foetal distress and need for interventions, there came a point during both at which I somehow knew it was going to be fine. This point came later in the proceedings for ds1 than ds2, but it was definitely there. I really think it was down to the good, professional, sympathetic care I had. The MW who told me with ds1 'I want you to be able to do this, hang in there'. The doctor who'd looked after me all pregnancy with ds2, happened to be on shift that morning and was just absolutely calm and positive and focused. Who was just as moved as me when he came out and called out 'he's perfect'. It really made all the difference.

LittleBella, that use of 'elective' was something that got to me too when I was looking at 'elective' CS with ds2 mid-pregnancy because of total placenta praevia which had caused several bleeds and which didn't look at all like it would move (amazingly, it did). It would have been a case of 'elect' for CS or 'elect' to bleed to death.

chunkypudding... I have had a brilliant CS and a fantastic vaginal birth. I'd do either of them again tomorrow (but won't get the chance cos dh has just booked a vasectomy ). They were both equally wonderful, both appropriate in the circumstances (dd1, very complicated pregnancy both she and I would probably not have survived if I'd gone into labour naturally; dd2 totally unproblematic pregnancy and labour in every way). Both involved a certain amount of pain, but nothing unmanageable. Both were (jointly) the best days of my life. Don't be scared. Be happy and excited and look forward to it... however it happens.

Here's the figures guys!
homebirth no complications £467 (mean cost)
homebirth complications £693 (mean cost)
birth at midwifery unit £774
birth at midwifery unit w/ complications £1484
birth at consultant unit £838
birth at cons unit w/complications £1413
instumental birth £1175 -1705
C/s no complications £1912
c/s w/complications £2638
Transfer to cons unit £237 (cost of ambulance journey)
nice guidelines on intrapartum care 2007 (figures from 2006)
I'll leave it with you

I totally agree with Camillathechicken that for many women, giving birth has become so far removed from a natural process that this in itself creates problems. To my mind it is NOT normal to labour under bright lights while hooked up to monitors, unable to move around and feel in control of your body. I would have HATED the idea of an epidural for a normal VB, because how can you possibly feel in control if your body has been anaesthatised? I personally have experienced a range of births : DC1 natural birth in midwife unit, DC2 C-section (baby very prem, very distressed and breech), DC3 VBAC (in a large hospital under consultant care due to previous history). The c-section was necessary to save DC2s life. That is the ONLY justification for having it IMO. My first birth was the best experience of the 3 - and interestingly the most painful- which goes to prove that feeling empowered and in control can make you feel good even with a very painful labour.
lastly, while I disagree with anything that treats women who have a c-section has inferior, or second class citizens, I also think we're in danger of swinging the other way and not allowing women who give birth naturally to feel proud of their achievement. the feeling of pushing out my DC1 and 3 without pain relief was like nothing on earth. That's not competitive birthing - I couldn't care less if other women choose epidurals or whatever - but I felt hugely empowered and in touch with myself and I don't see why women should feel they almost have to apologise for that.

Spam? Moi? [offended emoticon]

cottishMummy on Mon 26-Nov-07 22:26:22
camilla - the majority of births result in live birth, over 90% of birth plans do not go to plan. Yes for the minority of women who experience trauma distress debrief and counselling if reqd is an invaluable resource.

my point was not about the percentage of live births but the impact that a negative birth experience can have on women, and that should not be dismissed on the grounds that the baby is fine and healthy. not all birth trauma relates to crash sections etc. it can relate to what appear to be 'normal' v.b.

thanks for those figures Jamilla, i was pretty sure that i was correct in my recollection.

not that birth choice should be predicated on cost,but it was relevant to a comment much further down the thread.

camilla thanks for keeping referencing me i am flattered. thing is i agree with you about birth trauma nand its impact and that not all birth trauma is associated with blue light admission.

CAmilla, one of my problems with your position is that women are made to feel incredibly guilty if they do not manage the natural birth so recommended by others. I am due with my first in 10 days, so have very recent experience of the antenatal process. Some of the information i have been given can be abbreviated as following:

-hospitals are bad places. It is where people go when they are sick

-it is unnatural to give birth in a medical environment with bright lights etc

-you can catch MRSA/ CDiff

-everyone should aim to have a home birth if possible, if not they should insist on minimal intervention and be out in 6 hours

-you should be able to give birth in a dimly lit room, with aromatherapy and nice music

I would suggest that some women you have counselled have been given unrealistic expectations by this approach. Perhaps if they were told when they are pregnant that they are not failing if they have intervention and that the most important thing is a healthy mother and baby, they may not be so traumatised by the whole experience.

suey 2 - but WHO is actually making women feel guilty? IME, with most women who regret having had a very medicalised birth, the feeling comes from the mother herself. Besides, as I said in my earlier post, I don't think we can 'silence' women who do achieve natural birth - they have every right to feel empowered and proud of their achievement. I've had a natural birth with DC1 and a C section with DC2. The first was much harder work and much more painful and I'm really proud of myself that I did it. Why should women not be allowed to say so?

so I guess scheduling 2 c-sections to fit in with childcare arrangements is a stupid reason?