anyone had two breech babies?

[BetsyBoop]

DD was breech.

Had successful ECV at 37wks, only for her to turn breech again 2 days later...

She eventuslly turned head down of her own accord at 38+6, so elective c/s for 39+1 cancelled, but ended up with an em c/s anyway (that's another story...but I think her late turning contributed, as head never engaged)

Am now 36+3 with no.2 & hoping for a VBAC.

However at my appointment yesterday they weren't convinced baby was head down & are sending me for a scan to check. (baby had been head down since 32wks) They want to do el c/s as soon as I hit 39wks if baby is breech.

What are the chances of me having another breech? Surely I can't be that unlucky? Could there be a reason why my babies like breech position?

DH keeps telling me not to worry until we know for sure, but I feel so disappointed at the thought of it, I've put so much "work" into my proposed VBAC already

Your experience sounds very similar to mine. DS1 was breech, had successful ECV at 37 weeks then he turned back, then he turned again.
DS2 was breech up until around 37 weeks and then he turned. You still have time. I did have acupuncture the second time so whether that helped I don't know.

I did ask if there was a reason why both babies had been breech but never really had satisfactory reply other than, they're obviously just comfortable in your womb that way.

thanks Katie

Glad to know it's not just me

Keep telling myself even if baby is breech there is still time for him/her to turn.

I had acupunture first time round too, so I might try it again if baby is breech.

I think it is unusual betsy, I couldn't believe my 'luck' when DS2 was breech too. I once read that breech babies like to have their heads nearer their mother's heartbeat which I'm sure is utter rubbish but quite lovely to think about .

Also had a breech ds. Apparently it is possible to have a differently shaped uterus (heart-shaped) so babies more likely to be breech if this is the case.

a lady i work with had 2 breech babies, it was over 15 years ago and she had them vaginaly. one of them was a footling and the other bum first. she finds it shocking that so many cs are carried out for breech babies

still not convinced this baby is breech, I've definitely got feet under my ribs as I can see them when baby kicks hard (guess it could be a frank breech)

However the hiccups sensation is totally different to when DD is breech - when DD had hiccups her head bounced up & down on my stomach, this time it feels like baby is bouncing up & down on my cervix...

Can definitely feel a hard lump top left though, so I guess that's why they are confused, either a head or baby has a firm bum

I've only had one breech baby (who came out vaginally, bottom first). I definitely knew she was breech. Her head was under my ribs and it was much harder than a bottom. The feel of her sutures was a lot different that the natal cleft (ie crack) - it was much narrower and more defined.

The actual kicks and position of the heartbeat were fairly ambiguous. Managed to trick the midwife.

Betsy, ds1 was a frank breech and the kicks were all under my ribs. His head was under my ribs too and my ribs are permanently misaligned.

scienceteacher, did you deliver your breech baby vaginally? Was she a first baby?

I delivered DD vaginally - she was frank breech.

She was not my first.

DD was my first and I had her as a vaginal footling breech birth (midwife assisted). Right up till the end her head was wedged under my left ribs and was very ballotable (if you pushed the bump gently on either side, the head swung quite freely)

Our midwife lent me a couple of books about breech birth (by Benna Waites and an AIMS publication by Jane Evans). One of them had found that in a few cases breech babies tended to run in maternal lines: I think they had about 3 generations of one family - first generation had about 6 babies of which most (4 or 5) were breech, and any daughters tended to have >50% breech babies as well. As I recall the suggestion was that something to do with the shape of the mother's pelvis makes the baby more comfortable in a breech position - but so few instances were recorded they weren't really sure. I think more generally it was just the baby was either contrary () or couldn't turn for some reason (bicornate uterus, slightly corded, short cord, placental site, lack of space)

Good luck making your decision. If you really want to go for a VBAC have you considered talking to Independent Midwives? That was the route we took in the end, and they were so much more supportive of a vaginal breech birth - mainly I think because they see it as unusual rather than abnormal, whereas the NHS sends you straight to a consultant and consultants just don't seem to DO "normal" when it comes to birth (which makes me , but that's a whole other story!).

I do feel annoyed that I wasn't given the option of a vaginal birth with ds1. I ended up having CS's for all the rest which wouldn't necessarily have happened if my first could have been natural!

BetsyBoop - as todaywasfun says, it is possible that your uterus could be abnormally shaped. Mine is heart shaped and my ds's head was stuck in one of the lobes and he couldn't turn at all for the last 7 weeks. I don't know for sure, but I am willing to bet that any future pregnancies I have will be breech too. However, this was discovered when I had my cs for ds and I can't imagine that if they had found you had an abnormally shaped uterus that they wouldn't have told you. Perhaps you could ask for your notes and see if there's anything in there? Or if you do end up with another cs (hopefully not!) you could ask them to look during the operation - it would mean that you would know for sure! Good luck, whatever happens

If you feel that your baby isn't breech, then you are likely right - The your baby might be breech line has been used on me - I knew she wasn't based on having had one already and I don't know what I was expected to do, maybe shout ok ok cut me open! but I went to the scan and hey presto -not breech while I was there they did try to manouvere me into seeing the consultant but had to give up, so I feel a bit cynical about it, knowing that policy was to scan for position anyway for vbac's and I'd declined that very early unless there was doubt as to position funny that
Lisa X

thanks for all your messages

I discussed my last c/s with the doctor who did the op, she said everything was totally normal & there was no reason I couldn't try for a VBAC, also DD did turn herself last time eventually (38+6...) so I don't think I've got a heart shaped uterus.

Part of me would love to try for a vaginal breech, but I know it's not the best option for baby, as I've got at least two of the higher risk factors (baby >3.8kg - DD was 3.85kg & previous c/s). They have already said the hospital policy is c/s if breech & you've already had a c/s...

Still getting kicks under my ribs, but I guess I'll just have to wait for the scan to know for sure...

BetsyBoop - I'm by no means an expert but, to be frank, I was absolutely horrified by some of the arguments the hospital used when I had the "so your baby's breech" discussion. Sadly, the culture of recommending C/S for breech babies and only "allowing" a medicalised vaginal breech extraction means that the number of normal vaginal breech births of term babies your average Obs consultant sees is very VERY small .

I always felt that I needed to make my own informed decision on how to birth my baby, and I did not feel that the NHS consultants were giving me a full and unbiased set of information with which to make that decision. After doing my own research and talking to M/Ws that specialise in breech births I felt that a C/S was not in the best interests of either me or my baby, even though we knew she was going to be larger than average.

At the end of the day, everyone needs to make their own decision based on their own circumstances and the options available to them. However, if you are interested in having a vaginal breech birth, I would strongly recommend you talk to a midwife experienced in VBAC and breech birth (either NHS or Independent) to get the opinion of someone that actually DOES breech birth on a regular basis.

Fingers crossed your LO has got their act together and is head down - and good luck making your decision .

Exactly tangle - If breech was as big a problem as they make out then neither I, my husband or most of our ancestors wouldn't have survived - That's the argument i used to be able to labour with my first -unfortunately I wasn't well informed enough and was on the progress to c/s treadmill from the moment i set foot in the door.
lisa x

Lisa - exactly why I stayed home! I felt well informed, but didn't fancy arguing the point while in labour.

BetsyBoop - I'm genuinely interested to know why a large breech baby would be any more risky as a VBAC than a large cephalic one, or was the risk a large baby full stop? (sorry - meant to include that in last post and forgot)

the large baby risk came from the RCOG guide on breech management.

"A trial of vaginal breech delivery is more likely to be successful if both the mother?s pelvis and the
baby are of average proportions.24,25 In an intention-to-treat observational analysis, there were no
overall differences in neurodevelopmental outcome at 2 years between planned vaginal delivery
and planned caesarean section but there was significantly higher risk of neurodevelopmental delay
in children with birth weight greater than 3500 g with planned vaginal birth."

Betty, read that very carefully indeed - I'ts largely based on the Hannah Breech Trial which was one of the most flawed studies in the history of obstetrics - record keeping in some cases was abysmal and there was no standard of minimum competence for the doctors - RCOG have only really used the 'evidence' which suits their intent,I'd try to find some other stuff to balance it if I were you, that said ,As Mary Cronk says if you have doubts about the capability of the practioner then find someone competent or go for the C/S
Lisa X
PS Convert the weights given to pounds and ounces - the larger equates to 7 pound 11 (what dd weighed and she wasn't overly big)

betsy - following on from my other post I just wanted to add (because you mention birthweight). DS1 was 9lb 13oz and all medical opinion seemed to think that DS2 was going to be over 10lb - as it was he was 8lb 15oz.

The book tangle recommends by Benna Waites is very good.

It could also be to do with the shape of your pelvis, some women do have more than one breech, but on the bright side if your dd turned around, this one may well do aswell. Both of mine were breech until 34 weeks but both turned round and delivered normally. If they had stayed breech I would have gone for a midwife managed hospital breech and asked for the doctors to stay away unless needed. (ok sounds much more simple than it probably would have been, and I did have a friend mw looking after me.)

got my scan appointment now for Thursday morning, so I guess we'll find out one way or another which way up baby is, still feels ceph to me, as hiccups are at the bottom rather than bouncing up under my ribs like with DD.

They are also doing a growth scan, which I will take with a pinch of salt, as they said DD would be 9.5-10lbs & she was 8lb8.5oz (I'm 5'11" & DH is 6'4", so we were hardly likely to have a 6lber were we! )

just had ds who was breech. my consultant said that there was no medical reason for his breech presentation. when we were chatting after the birth he said that in his experience; women who present breech for no particular reason, have higher likelihoods of presenting breech again.

obviously that is his opinion; but he has a lot of women coming back to him for subsequent eliveries.

good luck!