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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Elective C-Section at Chelsea Westminster: NHS vs Kensington Wing

36 replies

flatsearch8 · 21/03/2018 18:03

Dear moms those who's recently had a planned C-Section in Chelsea Westminster Hospital at either NHS or Kensington Wing please help!

I am in agony after I've met Mark Johnson and Nick Wales during my recent A&E NHS hospitalization at 32 weeks, and later Keith Duncan at Kensington Wing and all 3 said that I shall have ELCS following a traumatic 1st labor.

(The 1st one was at UCLH via NHS and was horrible. The birth itself was messed up by midwifes who broke my waters and put me in swimming pool for 3h where contractions stopped completely and both me and the baby got an infection. Then with baby distress and me having 39C fever they transferred me to operations theater for EMCS which I resisted and ended up with 3b tear, episiotomy and forecepts and baby being taken to NICU for Xrays, etc. and both of us being put on antibiotics for a week. The recovery was 6m long and painful with bowel urge and flatulence and I am still having pain from sex and don't enjoy it that much anymore. The after-care was also terrible with one midwife yelling at me for spilling urine that ran over the paper bowl that she gave me - that's after >36h in labour, .1h spent on stitching me up and being fit with a painful urine catheter for a couple of days! Also had to stay on a very hot, noisy and poorly cleaned 6-women ward for the first 3 days as private rooms were not available).

So, after spending 3 nights at CWH NHS Ward lately I've reflected on my NHS UCLH experience and got rather nervous about a bunch of inexperienced 20y.o. midwifes and "doctors" who look like children to me and often talk cluelessly about pregnancy matters and other medical issues. In 6 shifts I saw just 1 midwife looking ~40y.o. who appeared trustworthy to me.

While I was staying in a private en-suite room due to flu, I could hear couple of midwifes coughing all night long at their station and in the corridor w/o any mask on - and they were attending to moms with newborn babies and pregnant women hospitalized with various complications.

Also, my room was not cleaned before I was put there with dirty surfaces throughout and filthy dirty fridge. I had to get gloves and Clenex wipes outside the room myself and clean it all! Also, I had to demand a cleaner to come by 2nd day stay to clear the trash bins that were full over the top. The one that came threw trash bags (thankfully new ones) on my pillow and looked angry when I objected it and demanded a new pillow case.

Meeting Mark Johnson was very pleasant as he sounded very credible and experienced in more than just obstetrics - despite the scary (for me personally) news that I shall have a planned C-Section this time round.

So, I felt very enthusiastic at first hoping that since it w.b. a planned operation and he's advised on it he would do it himself. But then as I started to research the topic I figured that, unless you have a serious complication, you are utmost likely to be operated by an Intern with Consultant just signing of the papers, i.e. often not even being in the operations theater during the procedure.

I am scared to bits of being cut by some overworked or sick trainee or one for whom it would be his 1st surgery ever. - I've really had enough with my 1st delivery at UCLH.

So, I am now turn b/w taking chances with CW NHS and going to Kensington Wing.

For us £15K is a large amount of money that we're saving to buy a flat but we do have it. Also, my insurance said if the medical reasons are those that they accept as valid they'd cover ~£4k.

So, please help with your experiences on either side (or both!)!!!

Oh, and my insurer said that they only have Keith Duncan (but not Nick Wales or Mark Johnson) registered with them. So, any comments on particular OB would also be great!

Thanks

OP posts:
PotteringAlong · 21/03/2018 18:06

about a bunch of inexperienced 20y.o. midwifes and "doctors" who look like children

Did you mean to be this rude?

Cbeebiessavesmyafternoon · 21/03/2018 18:13

It's 'midwives' not midwifes.

snowdaytoday · 21/03/2018 18:30

I had an elcs on the Kensington wing a year ago

Fantastic experience and the midwives were lovely.

If I have another baby I will do the same thing.

flatsearch8 · 21/03/2018 19:16

snowdaytoday - thank you. Who was your consultant if you don't mind?

PotteringAlong - not sure I shall even reply back to you as I see nothing rude about my impressions. If somebody does not know how to attach ECG correctly so that I get false heart problem and pulmonary embolism suspicion and advise to do a high-radiation scan, they are at minimum "inexperienced" to me. Likewise, when I am asking for a medical doctor at 6pm to discuss the pros/cons of such scan and am woken up at 1am by a very-very young looking lady who claims to be a doctor and who just recites to me my notes (that I've read myself before during the day time) at a speed of 100 words p.m. I also find that "inexperienced" at least...

OP posts:
KittyKK · 21/03/2018 19:54

Hi OP - I’m due to have a ELCS at Kensington Wing shortly. Apparently the NHS side is very good for delivery, but really quite poor for post-natal (feedback from friends). I know Kensington Wing posted on their fb page recently that they take bookings for patients transferring from NHS delivery suite to KW for postnatal stay...may be worth giving them a call to find out more. Have you asked the consultants if they will do a delivery only package?

P.s. I understand what you mean about young and inexperienced staff. Recently went to a free NHS dental check-up and the dentist was maybe 22 and literally counted my teeth for 2 mins and said see you in 6 months. No confidence in the “expertise”!!

Lndnmummy · 21/03/2018 20:55

“Lady who claims to be a doctor” Hmm
I’m pretty sure that she didn’t make that but up.

You sound incredibly entitled

goingagain · 21/03/2018 21:03

I have had Keith Duncan in the Kensington Wing for all four pregnancies and he delivered three out of four (first baby was a bit early and he was away on holiday so was delivered by a colleague). I had vaginal births not sections but can answer any questions you might have on him. I have also recommended to friends some of whom have had sections with him. Do PM me.

ObiJuanKenobi · 21/03/2018 21:43

Wow

PotteringAlong · 22/03/2018 07:12

If you think someone is claiming to be a dr when they’re not you should report them to the police as I’m fairly sure that’s illegal.

Or, again, you might get on better if you stop being so rude.

flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 11:46

Ladies, please, those who cannot answer the question being asked don't bother writing. Get a life rather than try shaming somebody you don't know in a chat!

Only I know what I've been through having my family of three being nearly wiped out (w/o exaggeration) just last year by three different incompetent but very self-confident junior doctors at CWH A&E while each of us had classic symptoms of common life-threatening conditions like pneumonia and acute appendicitis . If we didn't have private insurance and turned for help of experienced doctors last-minute we'd be all dead.

So save your useless comments to yourselves as I see nothing "rude" or "extremely entitled" in seeking to receive the best professional care vs. cost I can - and especially so after working for 16h a day and paying way more taxes than what I get from the state in terms of public healthcare and schooling. (Again: please don't go into political discussions here as this is NOT what I've started this thread for).

Kindest regards to each and everyone and sorry to those feeling offended.

OP posts:
TootsieWantsToRelocate · 22/03/2018 12:45

OP, I don’t think you’ll get much sympathy on here if you start an NHS bashing thread. For all its faults, most people agree that the NHS is an amazing institution that has saved many a life.

Re your last post: I’m not sure how or why you would consult private doctors in a life threatening situation. I also have private health care (which I’m very fortunate to be able to call on when I need/want), but I can’t think of any emergency situation where my private health care would help me. Private health care isn’t equipped to deal with emergencies.

flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 14:37

TootsieWantsToRelocate, TBH, I am not looking for sympathy - was just hoping to find moms who's recently had ELCS at CWH on either side to understand if it is worth spending a big chunk of our savings on private operation or not as I've developed a serious anxiety of NHS failing me again and am now trying to weigh my fear against £15k that was very hard to earn.

I do not feel I am "bashing NHS" (or at least that was not my intention) - rather just sharing personal experience that was very-very bad.

E.g. I was with a const 40C fever for 2 weeks that would not fall a notch after paracetamol or ibuprofen, const headache that made me want breaking my head with a hammer, confusion, inability to understand what my family were asking and to answer them clearly, light sensitivity, pain in all body, cough that made me vomit, and extreme const nausea. So, first my NHS GP said it was "just a flu" when I saw him on day 3 of symptoms and then that A&E Dr made me wait for 7 hours and then asked if I ever had headaches after drinking too much and happily and confidently concluded that it was a migraine on top of some respiratory virus.

Ironically enough, as I was in terrible state I've asked my cleaner to come with me to A&E, and while we were waiting she said "You know what? I think you've got a pneumonia. I can't think of anything else that would make you so sick and cause such cough". A cleaning lady from Eastern Europe knew better than an accredited UK doctor!!!

And the Dr refused to do CRP and ESR blood tests - just done a rapid WBC test, which does not show anything in lots of cases, not to mention an XRay and swab for bacteria/viruses.

Thanks goodness I did not listen to that CWH A&E Dr and convinced my insurance that I needed to see a Neurologist for that killer non-stop headache (as I've thought after reading on-line I had a viral meningitis).

So Neurologist overheard me coughing in his waiting area and said "I think you've got pneumonia. Forget about migraine and go straight for X-ray".

Then I ran to the same NHS GP who sent me home 12 days ago with my X-ray on hand (as Neurologist was only supposed to see me and the image in 2 days time) and he said that he did not believe it was pneumonia - in clear denial of his initial miss.

Then I arranged via insurance to see a Respiratory Consultant same eve - and he said it was a very advanced atypical pneumonia that had almost gotten to my heart and the root of the lungs (the one that requires several powerful antibiotics due to resistant to conventional amoxicillin).

I was treated by him at Cromwell with lots of appointments, blood checks, heart and lung scans, etc. that cost £10-20k. And it took me 3 months to recover and left me scared for life of any respiratory illness.

My little son who caught my infection went to see A&E Paed at CWH and a very young Dr said he was "100% confident it was just a normal children's bug" and sent him home. - All after being told my ongoing story.

So, again, I ran next morning to private Paed via insurance and he sent my DS straight for X-ray and bloods. And guess what? - same pneumonia as mine but caught very early, so no risk for heart or lungs stopping working as in my case.

A week before my misfortune began, husband spent half-day with tummy pain and after he's told me his exact symptoms and developed fever, I told him "go to A&E - it's appendicitis". (I am not a Dr and never had one myself but heard from 2 friends who did).

And again, some Jr Dr failed to recognize all the classic symptoms and kept him for 28h w/o surgery or any investigation even. I had to call in panic private surgeons to find somebody who could just get up and gain access to operations theater and to carefully convince our insurance that it was not an emergency (which they don't cover) but a need for consultation that just happens to be available straight away and take it from there. So, husband happened to have the largest appendix on record that that Surgeon Prof. had ever seen and it did rupture - thanks to NHS negligence. Instead of laporoscopy and 1-3 days in hospital he ended up with a massive cut, and 2-week hospitalization with drainage, nasty leaking wound and insane amount of different antibiotics.

Phew, that was quite a long reflection.

Sorry but felt like laying it all out straight after being bashed for "bashing the NHS";)))

I am convinced that I have my right and reason for feeling let down by them and damn worried about upcoming childbirth and any future A&E admissions.

Re insurance: I always attempt to see a private consultant same or next day now in case of any worrying symptoms. - You just have to be careful with how you phrase it to GP and insurer to make sure they don't tell you to go to A&E instead. And hospitals like Cromwell, St Johns and Elizabeth and several HCA hospitals have lots of in-patient facilities should you require hospitalization.

Unfortunately though my currrent UK insurance does not cover pregnancy and labour while it is actually a time when you need continuous qualified care since there are just so many things that can go wrong for either you or your baby. Having lived in other countries where I had full pregnancy and childbirth insurance coverage (but no kids yet) and where seeing a Dr every couple of weeks with blood tests and scans as well as having a Dr led delivery is a norm in both state & private hospitals, I feel very stressed and vulnerable now.

To finish, I am definitively happy for those whose lives were saved by NHS but I was not one of those lucky people so far.

OP posts:
HolyGoats · 22/03/2018 14:44

I didn’t have an ELCS at CWH but at the Portland with Lorin Lakasin (who also covers CWH and I would thoroughly recommend). What I would say is make sure you have around an extra 10k on top of the fees - the cost for all scans, blood tests, consultant appointments, pain relief, any extra nights needed etc etc very quickly adds up!

HolyGoats · 22/03/2018 14:45

Unless you can cover it with insurance obviously! You may be able to if cs is medically recommended.

TootsieWantsToRelocate · 22/03/2018 15:07

A cleaning lady from Eastern Europe knew better than an accredited UK doctor!!! honestly OP, this kind of reflection isn’t doing you any favours.

I would strongly suggest you check out the backgrounds of any private obstetrician you decide to use. Some of them (they are not hard to find) have had serious cases medical negligence cases bought against them (despite being in private medicine!) In my experience, these seem to be the ones that are still on the books of insurance companies. Be careful, OP.

flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 15:14

Thanks, HolyGoats!

I am 1m away from CS - so would have max 2 appts and scans that are already included in £5K quoted by consultant (so £1k ante-natal + £4k for CS and post-natal checks). £10-11K at Kensington Wing include 3n stay post-delivery w midwife care and £850 for anesthetist.

I hope it all goes as planned since it is ELCS and I won't need any extras other than that this one specific OB at CWH uses some special dressings that are £180 each. But hey, if that's part of the magic behind "best scar in town" I don't mind the extra (and surely hopefully no infection).

I am not considering Portland due to limited private NICU - huge financial risk and you may still end up at UCLH or CWH if [god forbid] anything goes wrong with the baby.

Out of sheer curiosity, if you don't mind, what was your delivery & postnatal bill there and for how many nights?

OP posts:
GenerationEx · 22/03/2018 15:20

In answer to your original post, I did ELCS on NHS and then transferred to Kensington wing for recovery. I don't think you should extend your experiences in A&E to the maternity, as I think they have a pretty good team. I didn't like not knowing who would do the section, but I got Natasha Singh in the end and she is very experienced. You will not get some training chancer doing their first opp (I did raise this question specifically). In reality if you get a more junior Dr they probably do more ops than the big names. Defintely can recommend paying for the Kensington Wing though. Good luck.

sashh · 22/03/2018 15:45

If somebody does not know how to attach ECG correctly so that I get false heart problem and pulmonary embolism suspicion and advise to do a high-radiation scan, they are at minimum "inexperienced" to me.

That makes no sense, yes you can put the leads i the wrong place but the rhythm will be the same.

HolyGoats · 22/03/2018 16:00

flatsearch altogether it came to approx £22k. I had absolutely everything done privately though. I was based in Kent at the time so it would have been too tricky to mix and match some nhs and some private as a lot of people do.

I had originally planned to use nhs as I had been told I would qualify for elcs (first birth had been nhs and I had a very traumatic time both physically and mentally). But when I went for my checking in appointment I was told although there was no reason I wouldn’t be allowed a cs I couldn’t even speak to the consultant until 34 weeks and I would be booked for cs at 39 weeks. Dc1 has been born at just over 35 weeks, I was an hour drive from hospital and my first labour had been 2 hours from first contraction to baby. I just wasn’t convinced if I went into spontaneous labour I’d be given a cs in time - which would have meant I would have probably died or been permanantly disabled.

HolyGoats · 22/03/2018 16:14

Sorry, forgot to say - I was there for 3 nights. Delivery was done at about 5pm on first day (xmas day!) and I stayed until about5pm on the last day.

flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 18:32

HolyGoats, I know very well where you are coming from - had similar experience with 1st birth and similar situation with current pregnancy.

I am 33 weeks now and nobody at my NHS hospital ever bothered scheduling an appointment with OB for me despite them having all my notes from 1st labour that clearly state "Future vaginal deliveries pose significant risk ... and must be discussed with OB".

It was by chance that I had got all my notes from 1st delivery at home and happened to review them just before I got hospitalized at another hospital with lung blood clot suspicion. OB I've met there said straight away that I should have ELCS and suggested to transfer to his hospital.

My original hospital was rather reluctant to book OB consultation for 34th week - even after I've told them about the above - I was still suggested to have just a routine midwife appt. Madness...

Re cost: CWH with antenatal private appts and scans and blood/urine tests would be about £20k mark as well.

I've personally have already spent some £2-3k on private scans, some blood tests and Panorama test on Harley St to supplement NHS - so together with delivery would be near £18k. (Ouch!)

Very happy for you that it all went well at Portland!!!

Hoping for the same for myself and my baby at CWH:))))

OP posts:
flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 18:39

sashh:

I am not a medic myself, so know nothing about it. But OB Professor that attended me and whom I've asked what was wrong with my ECG (I think it read "TW1 changes in V2, V3" or smth like that) told me "Oh, this happens often when the electrodes are not attached well or placed wrongly. Most likely you have nothing to worry about as you've had 6 ECGs and some of them looked OK"...

OP posts:
artichokehearts · 22/03/2018 18:53

I had two c sections at C&W, NHS but consultant led. Not Mark Johnson but another lady I got to know was under him and his reputation is very good. Pre natal and delivery, also acute recovery bit where you go for the first 12 hours or so afterwards - there's was at least one midwife there the whole time between 4 or 5 ladies. Hospital in general very clean. However, yes post natal ward was not great because of noise and yes the food was rubbish but family and friends just bought up stuff from Starbucks downstairs and you could also get pizza delivered. :) However I put up with it because honestly I think the medical care on NHS when you are consultant led was fabulous and so I would have been spending huge £££s for effectively a couple of post natal nights around the corner in the private wing.

Solasshole · 22/03/2018 19:04

Why are you annoyed at the doctor who didn't do an ESR or CRP on you? That's not unreasonable at all really. ESRs are essentially an obsolete and archaic test that won't give you any useful clinic information and certainly won't ever ever be used to diagnose pneumonia. The only time an ESR or equivalent viscometry is useful is for GCA diagnosis and sometimes for lymphoproliferative disorders like multiple myeloma.

A CRP, while a useful marker for inflammation, won't tell you that you have pneumonia, it is an extremely non specific test and is never used to diagnose any particular condition. And a rapid WBC test doesn't exist. It just doesn't. They could have done a full blood count (FBC) on you which includes a WBC count but no doctor orders just a WBC. And there's also no such thing as a "rapid FBC", all FBCs take essentially the same amount of time to complete and yes hospitals will prioritise an FBC from A&E over somewhere else but it will take the exact same amount of time no matter what. An FBC would more than likely show an increased WBC if you had a raging case of pneumonia so its not unreasonable for the doctor to order this, and to be honest would be diagnostically useful than a CEO anyway. Especially as you clearly had bacterial pneumonia given you responded to antibiotics, your neutrophils count would have been raised if your pneumonia was really that bad.

I'm saying this because you seem to fundamentally not understand some of the medical things that have happened to you so it makes me wonder just how accurate your perception of what's happened to you is. Sorry for being sceptical but you've stated several things that are medically just not done so it makes me wonder.

flatsearch8 · 22/03/2018 19:14

GenerationEx:

Thanks a lot for sharing! I've heard Natasha Singh is good. I'd be happy if I could get her on NHS for ELCS and just pay for recovery in Kensington:)))

Interesting perspective on who is "on the run" in terms of doing the surgeries. Heard similar comment from GP just an hour ago.

Would try to ask about the whole team who does operations during my midwife appt next week. - I've tried to find the info about the entire obstetric team composition on CWH web-site but no luck - it only has the "big" names. I would like to be able to familiarize myself with all bios as I still have time.

How did it work for you in terms of scheduling the ELCS with NHS since there are always lots of EMCS and other complications that require doctors' attention? I guess an important bit here is not to do it too early to allow the baby to develop but at the same time, not to delay to avoid going into labour.

Glad you've had a good experience!

OP posts: