Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Would these count as reasons for a ELCS

53 replies

Morecheeeeeeesegromit · 14/11/2017 15:28

I'm only 10 weeks now but as it's my first I'm thinking a lot about these things, I've been wondering whether the following list would mean I would be eligible for a ELCS

  • I'm terrified of anything medical, my heart pounds and I feel my blood pressure increase. I know this would mean in labour the same would occur and then constant monitoring would just make it worse still, almost creating a spiral of stress which I'm sure wouldn't help the baby
  • I'm fine with the idea of the childbirth pain, I'm terrified of the process and potential for serious damage to my body such as incontinence
  • I do not trust that my requests for no interventions will be listened to (I have read a scary statistic stating the amount of refused consent episiotomies for instance)
  • I cannot trust myself to not put my babies life at risk by not letting medical professionals near me if I am scared in hospital if I do not trust them because of the above (I may be fine, I may Not, who knows!!!)
  • when I was very young I had stitches somewhere down there.....i don't actually know where but I was only around 3 and I still vividly remember the pain and screaming at them to stop and being ignored - the statistics for mothers being ignored doesn't help this either. I have a feeling I also kicked a nurse hard in the head (which I do still feel incredibly guilty for Blush) I would not want to do that as an adult to a midwife

I am more than happy to talk through my fears with a xouncillor but quite frankly I think they're legitimate fears, same as someone who has a fear of snakes/spiders (actually I think it makes more sense as a teeny spider in the UK is going to have no negative impacts on you).

Would an ElCS be an option to me?

OP posts:
mimiholls · 17/11/2017 09:31

Of course you can change your mind at any time. But you will not get a elcs agreed, and rightly so, unless you are convinced it's the right option for you.

Morecheeeeeeesegromit · 17/11/2017 10:41

Blimey this whole situation seems to be a minefield......if you are genuinely scared of birth but are maybe willing to consider a homebirth then you're stuffed. Because then if later they say you can't have one then you're being forced to have the hospital birth you are terrified of?! And you can't then argue for a CS? So you're best off to fight for it then step back if you change your mind?!

It's terrible we have so little control over the most scary thing we can go through. Madness!!

OP posts:
ChocolateRaisin · 17/11/2017 11:32

I could have pretty much written your first post 6 months ago OP. I have been terrified of birth for as long as I can remember and it’s delayed me from ttc by years.

I’m currently 37 weeks pregnant and feeling on the whole, fairly relaxed about birth. I did a hypnobirthing course fairly early on in my pregnancy and have practiced it everyday in one way or another. My fears were very similar to yours, I was worried about life changing injuries, haemorrhaging and dying etc and it caused me a lot of anxiety. My honest, only fear now is not for myself, it’s for my baby, I just want her to be born safely.

As you know, giving birth unfortunately is not predictable and you can’t truly plan for how it is going to go. For me, hypnobirthing has really helped me come to terms with that fact, I feel confident that whatever happens I will be ok, I will stay calm and deal with whatever happens.

I absolutely want to have my baby naturally, in a birth pool, in my local midwife led unit which is attached to the hospital. I’ve accepted that it may not happen like that, but I am really hoping! If it doesn’t, I’ll use the techniques that I’ve learned to keep calm and relax.

I considered requesting a c section early on, but like others have said, that is highly medicalised and would not have been the best option for me.

You’ve got plenty of time to prepare yourself, research your options and go from there.

flojo73 · 17/11/2017 11:47

Bear in mind that a CS is major surgery and the implications it will have for you if you want more children in the future.

Lillybilly20 · 18/11/2017 14:01

flojo73 the same goes for viginal birth. The risks are there either way. The future risk of prolapse puts me off VB tbh.

Morecheeeeeeesegromit · 18/11/2017 16:22

I do agree lilly and I think the risks of a VB are massively played down in comparison to the way the risks of a CS are discussed

OP posts:
Anatidae · 18/11/2017 16:25

VB runs a lot of risks as well. And tbh, a complicated VB generally results in more damage than an elcs.

AutoCat · 18/11/2017 16:46

I've had two ELCS (first one due to a breech baby) and had lovely experiences but based on your reasons, I agree that it doesn't sound like the ideal option for you.

  1. You can't get much more medical than an elcs. They put a needle in your hand, do a spinal block where you have to keep very still, you're awake the whole time, you're constantly being monitored, and you still have to keep calm. The anaesthetic can affect people in different ways - it can make you shiver constantly for example. I was vomiting for hours after my last one.

  2. CS can also cause serious damage to the body - they are not without complications. I have recently discovered I now have bad adhesions on my scars. There are worse complications and risks (not common but they do happen).

  3. There are a lot of medical professionals around you during a section. You have to keep still and calm while the anaesthetist sticks a needle in your spine.

flojo73 · 18/11/2017 22:27

Lilybily, the risk of a vaginal prolapse vs a uterine scar rupture are not comparable. Only one is life threatening.

Lillybilly20 · 19/11/2017 00:15

flojo73 VB is life threatening

flojo73 · 19/11/2017 08:36

I was responding to your comment about the risk of a prolapse following a vaginal birth. There are obviously risks associated with both VB and CS. My point was that having a previous cs puts subsequent pregnancies into a higher risk category. If the OP is anxious due to medical interventions she needs to consider this.

OP, wishing you well in your pregnancy and with your birth choice.

Anatidae · 19/11/2017 09:20

But scar rupture is incredibly rare.

Over 50% of women with even uncomplicated vb will suffer continence issues at menopause.

eeanne · 19/11/2017 10:55

Anatidae incontinence can be addressed with physiotherapy.

I had ELCS and am trying for VBAC soon. I am grateful for my CS but didn’t find it a walk in the park recovery wise and my scar formed a keloid so it looks horrible. They both have downsides honestly, there’s no point arguing that one is superior to the other. It really depends on the woman.

Anatidae · 19/11/2017 11:12

I’m not at all arguing one is superior to the other - the safest way is usually an uncomplicated vb.

My point is that the following concept is often pushed on women: ‘you must have a VB regardless of your feelings or clinical indication because natural is best, and a cs is a major op, and VB is natural and thus always better and it’s fine.’

But it isn’t always fine. Natural is not always better. Women are refused sections so that trusts can get their figures looking good and arenleft with debilitating injuries. Low c rate is NOT the be all and end all of good birth care. If you reduce your c rate by ten percent and half of those women are left with major issues, you’re not succeeding. Some trusts don’t even record ongoing birth injury issues!

It’s vital that women are listened to, and not railroaded Into a mode of birth they don’t want unless there are solid clinical reasons for it.

Birth trauma is really common. The nature of some of the injuries is not fixable with physiotherapy - only a specific subset of injuries will respond to physio, many need surgery and many are not physically fixable.

My own personal experience is that I was treated as a vessel - my (educated, scientific and evidence based) opinions were not listened to at any point. That’s horribly disempowering. A good birth is one that leaves Mum and baby as physically AND mentally unscathed as possible. Too often women are denied a choice they want, a choice that has no clinical contraindications because of dogma - that’s just wrong.

eeanne · 19/11/2017 12:01

Totally agree with your overall point. But just wanting to clarify that CS isn’t an “easier” option and in OP’s case seems the opposite of what someone who has a fear of medical staff would ever want!

I’m very comfortable with hospitals but there was a problem getting my spinal in and I was jabbed like a pin cushion until they realized it wasn’t working, they put me on oxygen because the epidural made me feel like I couldn’t breathe, and I started to feel pain after the birth while being stitched up. Had I been anxious about operations honestly any of those things could have set me off.

She sounds more scared of needles and medical procedures than of incontinence.

Morecheeeeeeesegromit · 19/11/2017 12:14

I have absolutely no issues with needles, I have issues with the unpredictability of a natural birth in an environment I feel uncomfortable. I also have terrible fears of lasting damage to my body.......sorry I probably didn't explain well

OP posts:
Anatidae · 19/11/2017 12:20

Yeah totally eeanne (pet peeve of mine, the natural fallacy, not having a pop at you!) :)

Bue · 19/11/2017 21:04

Pregnancy is the more significant risk factor for incontinence than mode of delivery. The data on this aren't very good but seem to show that there is a slight reduction in stress incontinence for women who have a CS however this is only up to a certain age (we'll all suffer eventually!) and if you have several CS the risk isn't any lower than VB. Plus there are tons of other factors involved in urinary incontinence.

So that's not a very good example of a problem that can be avoided by having a CS.

eeanne · 19/11/2017 23:44

Morecheeeeeeesegromit my ELCS didn’t go by the book either. That’s my point. There’s less variability in ELCS in some areas but it differs from woman to woman. I know someone who had ELCS for same reason as me (breech), same hospital, and she experienced a major “overhang” above the scar and serious abdominal weakness requiring significant physio. I didn’t have any of that. So in her case she thinks CS are the devils work. Whereas I feel fairly neutral.

I recommend for sure working on your anxiety during the pregnancy. If CS is what you want, I hope you get it! But there is unpredictability there too so you’ll need to be prepared.

Anatidae · 20/11/2017 07:21

Different mechanism though - pregnancy itself does indeed cause pelvic floor weakening. That’s the kind of damage that is fixable by certain physio programs (which should be more widely available.)
That’s not what I’m talking about though - I mean trauma related injuries- double incontinence due to high rotational forceps, botched vaccuum extractions (one friend had FOUR attempts ffs) hours pushing, third/fourth degree tears is definitely aboidiable via cs. All those are highly traumatic - later years stress incontinence doesn’t compare in the slightest.

Trusts need to collect data on long term recovery - most don’t. I know far too many women with serious ongoing problems that are not acknowled or treated correctly. All have been dismissed at the time with the Natural fallacy, and all have been let down appallingly by the system. A cs is indeed major surgery, but the flip side of that is NOT pushing the idea that natural birth is just fine and dandy.

cherryontopp · 20/11/2017 10:42

OP, i would honestly wait until your further in your pregnancy and then decide.

I have anxiety, ive been scared stiff at the thought of birth.
Now im getting in my third trimester, im getting bigger, more uncomfortable, cant sleep, left hand in swollen, constipated, indigestion (have to take rennee after every meal), sick of being pregnant and tired..so i would literally give anything for birth to hurry up and i couldnt care less how i do it!

Keep an open mind but honestly, its not something id worry about 10 weeks in. Wait until your like a whale and then see how you feel Grin

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2017 19:06

Blimey this whole situation seems to be a minefield......if you are genuinely scared of birth but are maybe willing to consider a homebirth then you're stuffed. Because then if later they say you can't have one then you're being forced to have the hospital birth you are terrified of?! And you can't then argue for a CS? So you're best off to fight for it then step back if you change your mind?!

It's terrible we have so little control over the most scary thing we can go through. Madness!!

You are completely wrong.

Women who have homebirths often have common reasons for making that decision to women who want ELCS. There is less of a contradiction than you might think. A good midwife will understand this and will know there is an overlap.

Indeed when I got my ELCS agreed, I was told the midwives were happier agreeing to one, than risk a patient trying to give birth at home alone (without a midwife present) because of their underlying fears of consent. Apparently women who are denied an ELCS and feel 'forced' into a VB are at risk of attempting unattended homebirths.

I read a lot of posts about wanting an ELCS, and post on a lot of them. Everyone is slightly different, and has different emphasis about what is most important to the poster. What strikes me about yours is that the heart of your post is not that you desperately want an ELCS, its about central issues relating to trust and consent.

Your fear is not the medical intervention. Your fear is medical intervention without your consent or medical intervention you feel you have been coerced into.

Your fear is based on being afraid you will not be listened to and will loose control of being able to make decisions.

Yes there are, unfortunately, people and professionals who don't get this though, so how you articulate what your fear is, is very important.

Stress the heart of your fears. Frame it like that from the word go and this hopefully with set up a situation you can have a conversation about ELCS v HB (one with a midwife!).

The argument you will come up against and have to counter is the one about the fact you can not control your birth as things can 'just happen'. Again how you respond to that is important - you need to feel like you are being properly involved in your care rather than a spectator to it.

Which ever way you go it ultimately relies on you having built up trust with your care givers. And that's where counselling and contact & communication with your care givers might well come in. This need not be 'counselling' in the sense you mean either. Just talking to your midwife could be a form of counselling and be enough for your needs. If you are given the opportunity to do that, you might feel differently about a VB in a hospital setting too.

One of the leading midwives in the country on birth fear advocates allowing women to be granted ELCS early for this reason - precisely because it immediately creates a situation in which women who feel their fears won't be taken seriously have been listened to very early on. It gives a starting point where the relationship between midwives and the woman can be built upon. In his experience he found that if this happened, women often did change their minds as they felt they could go ahead with a VB, often with a robust birth plan and clear instructions ahead of time on what happened in certain scenarios they were most concerned about. (eg at first sign of trouble, a CS would be an early option rather than more of a wait and see strategy).

Its never too early to have this conversation with HCPs. If its causing you particular anxiety, do it early - give yourself the maximum opportunity and time to build trust up. You are not being difficult or over sensitive, you are dealing with a medical issue - anxiety.

Good luck whatever you do.

Bue · 21/11/2017 06:09

Great post Red. You've framed it so well - HB and ELCS are very often two different sides of the same coin.

aims331 · 21/11/2017 07:10

ELCS is not any easier than a vaginal birth. Both come with risks... I have had 2 CS and after my previous one I had an ectopic pregnancy pretty much due to all the adhesions in that area (everything has pretty much stuck together). The spinal was painful and made my body jump multiple times. My body shook the whole time during both CS and I couldn’t stop it so found it difficult to hold baby. I had bladder trauma and needed to wear a catheter for weeks after and had to go to a clinic for it. I also had a uterine infection after my first and I had two courses of antibiotics and horrendous pain. Also my first born had been nicked on the head which then caused the top of his head to sort of swell. Sorry didn’t mean to scare but having a baby is not always easy any way you decide to deliver.

RhinoGirl · 21/11/2017 07:33

All births carry an element of risk. I had a normal, straight forward low risk pregnancy. Until 35 weeks pregnant when I started to develop issues. They tried to induce me, complications meant I was 5 mins from being given general anaesthetic & put to sleep. Asked for a section after & they said no. Until eventually they did, then told me DD wouldn’t of laboured anyway!
The recovery was awful too. I would think carefully about all your options, speak to them with your midwife. My section was without a doubt the scariest moment of my life. But I would do it again, if the environment was more relaxed.