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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

" 'over-zealous' pursuit of natural childbirth ‘at any cost’ led at times to unsafe care " and deaths in Morecambe Bay maternity unit

105 replies

inamaymaybewrong · 03/03/2015 14:18

Thoughts on this, which is getting a lot of coverage today?

www.gov.uk/government/news/morecambe-bay-investigation-report-published

Official investigation into the uncessary deaths of babies and a mother at a hospital in Morecambe Bay cites 5 ways in which the maternity unit there was dynfunctional. including:Midwifery care became strongly influenced by a small number of dominant midwives whose ‘over-zealous’ pursuit of natural childbirth ‘at any cost’ led at times to unsafe care.

I've seen some commentators point fingers at the Royal College of Midwives campaign eg www.morecambebayinquiry.co.uk/index.php/blog

What's been your experience of the extent to which these things are issues elsewhere in the country, whether you're a patient or a professional? Maybe the tide against the medicalisation of birth and intervention has started to turn too far? Or maybe (hopefully) this is an isolated incident?

FWIW, I'm part of a few online groups geared towards attachement parenting though I'm firmly on a different end of the spectrum to others involved in them who are fervently pro-home birth and anti-intervention and active in groups on those issues too. I can't imagine getting much balanced discussion of this there so posting here instead! I've name-changed too as I may post my own (patient) experience later depending how the thread goes and don't want to out myself!

OP posts:
Bair · 03/03/2015 16:12

I'm giving birth in my local hospital (West Scotland) I had my booking in app and was asked what type of birth I was planning. I said I wasn't sure at this point.

Midwife asked me lifestyle questions then gave me a sticker saying I am suitable for the MLU and will go there. I'm fairly happy with this so haven't pushed back at all. However, the MLU doesn't offer the more medical types of pain relief. It's a beautiful unit, birth pools for every room, aromatherapy etc.

However I did wonder how much resistance there would have been had I pushed for the consultant led unit even though there isn't a 'need' as it were, other than a possible preference for access to pethidine, epidural etc. I was thinking there may be mothers who feel MLU has been decided based on risk alone and there they must go and perhaps didn't feel able to argue or speak up.

I do plan to ask questions about monitoring during labour during my tour and before the final decision is made. I keep hearing the phrase 'a more hands off approach' and although I don't want a load of intervention I do want the NICE guidelines of heart rate checks on the baby every 15 minutes followed regardless of how that affects my comfort or birth experience.

Sorry for rambling, obviously can't say much of use until after the birth, however I find the topic interesting and there is the niggle at the back of my mind that I may be steered away from epidural if I feel I want one while at the MLU.

Horseradishes · 03/03/2015 18:59

I think the drive for non medicalised births is not helpful to all women. I think that it's great to have options, be given facts about different types of births etc. However, ultimately forcing women to give birth 'naturally' is not right to me, the same way that I like attachment parenting but appreciate it doesn't suit all.

I had planned a standard vaginal birth in hospital/midwife led unit. It went wrong and dc was delivered by section with a fantastic consultant. I am eternally grateful for the medical intervention and would prefer that staff air on the side of caution when delivering babies.

My consultant was/is wonderful, he supports choice in subsequent births, doesn't force vbac and is very kind and empathetic, far more so than most of the midwives who seemed to chase only the 'holy grail' of vaginal birth.

NoRoomForALittleOne · 03/03/2015 19:50

I'm being looked after by one of the Morecambe Bay hospitals and this reputation is quite scary for me. I have to say though, I am not being pressured to deliver vaginally and the options are being very carefully weighed up between myself, DH, consultant and supervisor of midwives. I'd love a vaginal birth but it may be that it's not going to be a wise idea and they are being very diligent in weighing up the options with me.

The care I've had from midwives has been amazing. The care I received on the gynae ward before 18 weeks is a different story and was totally shocking.

NickyEds · 03/03/2015 20:48

My feelings are much the same as yours Bair. I'm classed as low risk so have "MLU" written in my notes (I refused a home birth). We really didn't discuss this and I'm not at all sure that I want to go with the MLU(after ds). It was just assumed that because i'm classed as low risk that's where I'll go. I'm going to have to bring it up with my mw but I've no idea what the reaction will be. The consensus seems to be "why on earth would you want to be anywhere other than the MLU"

anothernumberone · 03/03/2015 20:53

Nothing should be at all costs, however high interventions can have negative consequences too. I think when something goes wrong the causes need to be fully evaluated and the required changes must be made. Clearly it does not look like that happened. They are linking it to a hospital culture which needs to be changed.

Bair · 03/03/2015 20:57

How far along are you Nicky? I'm heading towards week 15 and week 16 brings another midwife appointment where I'm going to sound it all out.

A homebirth wouldn't suit me personally, and I like the idea of a MLU and plan to try hypnobirthing. However if on the day I don't feel comfortable or safe in the MLU I want to know I can go in where the doctors and gadgets are based on nothing but how I feel during my labour.

I felt very safe during my first birth which was on a normal consultant led labour ward and I feel no matter what choices a woman makes regarding her birth feeling safe in her environment should be a huge priority as long as it's not detrimental to her or the baby's well being. Surely there's no point in pools, aromatherapy and dimmed lights if the mother would relax more on a consultant led unit albeit one without the 'relaxing' bells and whistles.

WishUponAStar88 · 03/03/2015 20:58

I considered myself to be lucky I'm that my local mlu was in the same hospital as the delivery suite. I would not have felt comfortable in a stand alone unit despite being low risk. Just before dd was born her heart rate was very erratic so they called in the Dr in case she needed resuscitation. She didn't but I was glad to have a Dr there just in case.

Thesuperswimmingdolphin · 03/03/2015 21:31

I haven't finished reading the full report yet but the impression I have is that the unit concerned had a tendency to accept high risk women and manage them as low risk meaning that they had nether the clinical backup nor the paediatric backup they should have. That's pretty chilling because anybody who has been even slightly high risk in pregnancy knows how draining the whole thing can be and if somebody turned round and said ' oh you're fine with us' you'd be delighted - when actually that decision is putting you and your baby at risk that you're not able to evaluate because you don't know its there. After all why would somebody accept your for a service they couldn't safely deliver......Awful

NickyEds · 03/03/2015 21:37

I'm 21 weeks Bair. Decide where to give birth has become a bit of a nightmare as i had a bad experience with ds at a hospital which is "good on paper". Part of my problem is that I hated the MLU. It's a great facility with pools, fancy lighting etc but when I was in labour there it was cold and lonely. The "hands off" approach was just too hands off for me and we were very much left to ourselves. I need to know if my experience was typical of the MLU in general before I decide. Either way I'm not looking forward to discussing it with the mwSad

NoRoomForALittleOne · 03/03/2015 21:51

Interestingly, the hospital in question in the report does not have a separate MLU. If you are midwife-led then you go to the same delivery suite as the consultant led ladies. The nearest MLU is about an hour's drive away from this hospital.

minifingers · 04/03/2015 12:26

"Maybe the tide against the medicalisation of birth and intervention has started to turn too far?"

What - with a combined c/s and instrumental birth rate of over 50% at some hospitals, and a national induction rate of 1 in 5?

I don't think so.

This sounds to me like it was simply about incompetent care.

Physiological birth is safest when it is undisturbed. Once women are bought into settings where they experience lots of interventions and monitoring then staff need to follow through with the protocols which are in place to keep women safe in these situations.

minifingers · 04/03/2015 12:27

Sorry - shouldn't have used the word 'simply' as nothing is ever simple when there are huge organisational fuck ups like this.

Bair · 04/03/2015 12:33

I wonder if they were treating it like a MLU NoRoom, by that I mean managing high risk women as low risk.

minifingers · 04/03/2015 12:38

Would add, that pointing the finger at the RCM for their normal birth campaign is simply unfair.

It's also worth pointing out that the rising tide of interventions in birth appears to have done fuck all to reduce the stillbirth rate so I really don't understand why anyone would be pointing the finger at the RCM for encouraging midwives to help more women have straightforward births.

And if you look a the 'top tips for a normal birth' from the RCM website, I can't understand how you could see them as dangerous and controversial, particularly as midwives are also expected to adhere to NICE guidelines on providing safe care for labouring and postnatal mothers :

here

NoRoomForALittleOne · 04/03/2015 12:41

Well, it is a CLU but if you are classed as MLU then they just don't inform the obstetricians that you're in. I think there are only 6 delivery rooms (although the unit closed on Friday night as they had four women delivering and four midwives in). So it is very small. I can see how a midwife could just not inform the consultant that you are there...

NoRoomForALittleOne · 04/03/2015 12:52

And I don't think that it is anything other than a total failure from the top down. The CQC has told them to reduce their c-section rate. It's hardly just over zealous midwives (although there probably are some).

AuntieDee · 04/03/2015 13:08

And people think I'm nuts for wanting an elective section. Childbirth is dangerous as beautiful as it is...

NoRoomForALittleOne · 04/03/2015 13:17

I don't care what people think of me when they have no idea as to the reasons why I'm making certain decisions. I'm between a rock and a hard place at the moment and am just trying to make good decisions for the baby.

SolasEile · 04/03/2015 13:23

This incident seened quite typical to me of the attitude I found in the NHS maternity care teams I dealt with: an ideological attachment to natural birth, a disregard for mothers' preferences unless that preference was for a money-saving home birth and a weird obsession with avoiding consultants at all costs. I really felt undermined in my own views on birth (the more medical expertise available the better) and didn't feel as if I had a choice about the birth I wanted. I ended up with a forceps delivery which I firmly believe was down to non-progression of labour due to exhaustion from having been left in too much pain, labouring for too long.

With my second birth I hsd DC in the US and it was great. My obstetrician respected my views on birth, listened to me and was happy to give me an epidural whenever I wanted. I felt reassured that I was in good hands. I was leaning towards an elective C-section because my first birth was so bad but she gave me the confidence to tackle a vaginal delivery again and I actually had a great birth, quick and with almost no complications.

What women need is to be listened to and respected and in my experience midwives are far less likely to do that compared to obstetricians. The NCT mindset has taken over NHS maternity care to an alarming degree.

InHidingToday · 04/03/2015 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inamaymaybewrong · 04/03/2015 13:57

Solas - similar birth here! Forceps with spinal after 80+ hrs of v painful contractions with just Tens and G&A (I was hoping for a natural birth!). Baby was back to back but this wasn't ever explained to me until months later!!

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/03/2015 13:59

I'm slowly reading through the report.

from p13

1.4 Third, midwifery care in the unit became strongly influenced by a small number of dominant individuals whose over-zealous pursuit of the natural childbirth approach led at times to inappropriate and unsafe care. One interviewee told us that “there were a group of midwives who thought that normal childbirth was the… be all and end all… at any cost… yeah, it does sound awful, but I think it’s true – you have a normal delivery at any cost”.2 Another interviewee “… was aware that there were certain midwives that would push past boundaries”.3 A third told us that there were “… a couple of senior people who believed that in all sincerity they were processing the agenda as dictated at the time… to uphold normality… there’ve been one or two influential figures who’ve perpetrated that… sort of approach and… there’s nobody challenging…”.4 Whilst natural childbirth is a beneficial and worthwhile objective in women at low risk of obstetric complications, we heard that midwives took over the risk assessment process without in many cases discussing intended care with obstetricians, and we found repeated instances of women inappropriately classified as being at low risk and managed incorrectly. We also heard distressing accounts of middle-grade obstetricians being strongly discouraged from intervening (or even assessing patients) when it was clear that problems had developed in labour that required obstetric care. We heard that some midwives would “keep other people away, ‘well, we don’t need to tell the doctors, we don’t need to tell our colleagues, we don’t need to tell anybody else that this woman is in the unit, because she’s normal’”.5 Over time, we believe that these incorrect and damaging practices spread to other midwives in the unit, probably quite widely. Obstetricians working in the unit were well-placed to observe these lapses from proper standards, and it is clear that they did, but seemingly lacked the determination to challenge these practices. This in turn represents a failure to maintain professional standards on their part.

I think its one thing to criticise the midwives concerned, but their comments do not spring from nowhere.

There has been much campaigning to promote normal birth. There has been much pressure from politicians and NHS leaders to reduce CS rates.

Some of this is needed as there are women who are suffering because of over medicalization, but targets also having a hugely detrimental effect on women too.

Why is funding to maternity wards affected by CS rates? If your rate is too high, you loose money. That's absurd. Especially when you consider there is no optimal rate of CS. It infuriates me. Surely, if you have concerns about a high CS rate you should be investigating but not removing resources. Its a recipe for disaster.

WHO did suggest an optimal rate of 15% but rescinded this in 2009 saying whoever needs a CS should get one. However this figure keeps popping up and seems to be deeply ingrained into planning and thinking.

In August 2011 Dr Michael Dixon, Chairman of the NHS Alliance said the following: ‘We are going to need to balance all sorts of things in future, from cancer to heart disease. When it comes to treatments we may need to spend less on, that caesareans may be one.'

Article about fear of CS ban

What was very interesting about this was the timing. At the time the draft guidelines on CS had just been published for consultation before their final publication. It was highly politicial and very much in contrast to what NICE were proposing. NICE had even stated that cost alone should not be used as a reason to refuse ELCS as a) it was cost effective and b) there were down stream costs that weren't being considered.

In September 2011, Dr Michael Dixon then went on to a radio debate on local BBC radio quoting this WHO guidance of 15%. He was later forced to apologise for using the incorrect figure.

Article about his apology

This WHO thing won't go away either.

I spotted this article in the Guardian dated September last year. Again it appears, unchallenged. (FTR I don't think a CS rate of 90% is healthy either. The point is the WHO figure is being used to vilify and sensational and to influence the public).

So everything that happened at Morecambe Bay happened against a political background where influential and important individuals were using information that were both out of date and out of step with the NICE recommendations. A climate and pressure to avoid CS was being advocated from high up due to finances not just from an ideological belief that 'normal is better'.

Its interesting that there has been a big rise in women reporting birth trauma in the last ten years. It could be down to awareness. It could be down to poor experiences. It could be down to other things.

Whatever it is I really think we need to have a long hard think aboutthe 'right way to give birth' and why such a poor and unsophisticated understanding of health economics is harming women and babies.

minifingers · 04/03/2015 14:19

Can I just reiterate
Women have

  • more pain relief
  • more epidurals
  • more unplanned and avoidable c-sections
  • more assisted deliveries
  • more inductions
  • more augmentation
  • more stillbirths
.... than at any point in the last 30 years.

The increasing volume of the protest about the medicalisation of birth is a response to this, and it is right and reasonable that this should be so.

InHidingToday · 04/03/2015 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NoRoomForALittleOne · 04/03/2015 14:48

Redtoothbrush you could be there a while reading the report. I had to stop before I get too scared about being looked after there with a high risk pregnancy. I'll read it in stages to soften the blow. I daren't not read it though so I know what to be looking out for. Was gutted to read a particular comment from a midwife who looks after me in clinic Sad

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