No men in the delivery room

[RaRa1988]

I told my midwife at booking-in that I didn't any men (apart from DP!) near me when I'm having the baby. She said that was fine. Then I happened to mention it at a consultant appt yesterday and she told me that tough, I'd have to put up with it; they'd give me females if they could (though didn't sound like they'd try very hard), but otherwise I'd have male midwives/doctors. Can they do this?? Just surely in any other situation, if someone touched your genitals or entered your vagina without your consent, it would be considered sexual assault or rape... I don't mean to be melodramatic; I just feel very very strongly about this and I'm terrified at the thought of having male medical staff. I honestly don't think I could cope with it. I'm bad enough with female doctors - the majority make me extremely nervous, though I can usually cope with nurses and midwives - but the thought of men being there or doing intimate examinations has me in tears and my heart racing with fear. I just can't do it. And I'm even more terrified at the thought that I might be forced to. I feel so strongly that my DP said that if they really won't get female medical staff for me, we'll just do it at home on our own and call them when it's over. I even thought about having a termination after speaking to the consultant yesterday - it's the last thing I want, and I doubt I could go through with it, but I'm that frightened at the thought of having male medical staff involved.

What if I were for example, muslim or had other religious beliefs prohibiting men being involved in something so intimate - would my wishes be respected then? Because my feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with religion or culture, but surely they're just as important? I don't know what to do.

I think you should speak to the supervisor of midwives re this to at least discuss the basis for your feelings etc and how matters can best be dealt with.

I would strongly recommend that you don't try free birthing at home as it could be very dangerous. However, would you consider a home birth? I know that there are male midwives but they are not very common so the likelihood of a male midwife attending a homebirth is quite slim and it may be easier to ensure that you only have female midwives

All being well, you wouldn't have to transfer to the hospital. However, if you do, then you have to have discussed matters very thoroughly with your DH. If there is an emergency and no female doctors available, then you could end up with a situation where either or both you and the baby could end up with a negative outcome. So you need to be very sure that you absolutely cannot accept intervention from male clinicians as obviously there are potentially life altering consequences arising from that decision

On the one hand I think you're entitled to express a preference for the gender of the people in the delivery room.

As far as I am aware the disparity been numbers of male/female midwives means that you will be able to specifically request a female midwife.

The same doesn't apply for consultants/doctors who will only be brought in if there is a problem. And also for anaesthetists, one of who, would be present if you requested an epidural.

I sympathise, although I cannot relate to the level of anxiety you a showing. Personally, I tend not to see the gender of the person treating me - I see them by their professional role, as doctor or anaesthetist and as long as they are doing their job, for which they have trained for many years, I couldn't care less whether they are male of female.

I suppose what I am saying is that if things are not smooth running, and you need more assistance than a midwife can give, and that assistance relates to your own health as well as that of the baby, surely the sex of the person assisting is as irrelevant as their religion or race. What if you need a c-section and the only anaesthetist is a man, or the only surgeon on call is male?

Your levels of anxiety about the matter seem excessive (to me). Is it possible that you might benefit from discussing this with you midwife with a view to getting some counselling or guidance? Because surely you can see that giving birth at home with no medical assistance may not actually be the best thing for your physical health and that of the baby if complications arise. I'm not anti home birth - have done it myself. But wouldn't have comtemplated not getting midwives. Far too risky.

Trust me - if the only anaesthetist available to do an epidural if you need one is a man you won't give a flying fuck, same if you need a surgeon to perform a section.

You can refuse any examination, although again you may find you actually aren't that bothered. I had 5 people peering up my chuff at one point - I couldn't tell you what sex they were.

I think you should talk to your midwife or GP about some counselling to help with your anxiety around this.

Gobbolino : Good idea about the Supervisor of Midwives. Is that someone at the hospital, do you know, or someone just connected to the Trust as a whole?

Pooka: I wouldn't mind a C-sect being done by a man as I would want to be completely knocked out so I wouldn't know what was happening. It's knowing and being there and fully aware that causes me a problem. I definitely wouldn't consider an epidural though, so that won't be a problem. It all stems from nasty past experiences, including an ex who was a medic and was physically, emotionally, and sexually abusive towards me. I do realise that not all HCPs are like that, and that my ex won't be there, but it's left me finding it very difficult to trust men with anything intimate. If DP could do all the examinations etc, I'd be fine!

Your consultant was being very unkind. It's not "tough". You have the right to choose not to have male HCP. Your needs must be accommodated. Do not let this woman spoil your pregnancy. Just refuse to see any male HCP. I never let a male HCP touch me. It's amazing how quickly a female is found when you stand your ground and refuse. Remember, the staff at a hospital don't care about your modesty or feelings. They just want their job done as quickly as possible. You are just another women having a baby. You must tell them how you feel - they might be gender neutral, but you are not. If anyone touches you without your permission, it is assault.

I would ask to discuss this with the supervisor of midwives and talk through your reasons behind your request. The second midwife sounds very rude and unhelpful.

It sounds as though you have good reasons for your concerns and that particular mw obviously just wasn't listening. Talking to a supervisor should mean that your concerns and anxieties will get recorded and you should be dealt with with respect.

The only thing I would highlight is that there are only so many staff available in a hospital and unfortunately the situation may arise where the only professional able to do something which is very much needed is a man, for example the anethetist or the consultant. In an ideal world they would be able to find a female consultant, but time may be of the essence and that may not be a possibility. This is a tiny, tiny possibility but it is something you should consider. There are normally antenatal counsellors available, could you talk to someone about this?

A homebirth may very well be what suits you best, though I wouldn't recommend doing it without any contact with medical professionals at all, just because of the risks. Have you thought about meeting with some doulas to see if they would be a help for you?

I think you just need to talk to people and let the hospital understand your concerns fully, and see if there is anything they can do to provide reassurance that if there is that tiny possibility that a male medical professional is needed, what the hospital can do to support and reassure that everything is fine. Which may be having a doula present so that you feel you have many people advocating for you and protecting you, or perhaps another nurse or midwife who is always next to the male professional so that you feel he is being 'supervised'?

Generally it is unlikely to be an issues as during a week day there are lots of staff around and the chances are that there will be a female obstetric doctor. However if you are labouring overnight or at a weekend while the hospital is running an Oncall team there is a chance that the only doctors in the hospital able to help to safely deliver your baby are male. It is not people being difficult it is just a fact that out of hours there may not be the option for the doctor to be female. The same can be said for the paediatric team. If something happens which means that they need to be there then they may well be male.

Definitely talk to someone about your concerns. And wanting a female midwife is probably doable. However if you need medical intervention out of hours there practically may be no other option.

Thankyou for your suppoer and sympathy Sugarcane and ThurlHo . It's really troubling me. I understand that if it's life or death for the baby, then obviously I'm just going to have to deal with it. It would be extremely distressing for me, but obviously not as distressing as losing the baby! I just never thought it would be such a big problem - I'm not trying to cause difficulty for people, but given in numerous other fields I would only be dealt with by another female (airport security, personal care by a carer, police searches, etc), I honestly didn't think it would be so difficult! I want as little intervention as possible in terms of examinations etc, and I don't have any high-risk factors to suggest that I might have problems (though I realise you can't always foresee those), but I'm likely to want pethidine/diamorphine, which I understand you can only have in hospital rather than at a homebirth. The other problems with a homebirth are that I live in a tiny flat with nowhere practical to do it, I don't want to have to clean up the mess lol, it would be horrendous for the neighbours as noise certainly travels in here(!), and I'd like to use water for pain relief as long as I can and we don't even have a bath, let alone the money to hire a pool. A doula would probably be a good option, but again we couldn't afford it. I trust my DP implicitly and I know he'll fight my corner though, but I'm a bit scared after some of the stories on here of waters being broken/anal examinations performed/etc without consent. I won't be a problem for anyone so long as they tell me what's happening!

Randdom: It's going to arrive at 3am just to be difficult, isn't it?! Crossing my fingers tightly that it's all straight-forward when it happens so I don't need any doctors.

I don't mind about the paediatric team. I'm ok with male doctors in general - or as ok as I am with any doctor - so long as nothing intimate is being done.

You can sometimes get trainee doulas, they are cheaper? It might be worth investigating them. Of course your DP will fight your corner but you may feel much more confident with someone else as well to help.

Just make sure your concerns are noted and, if you can, be honest with the supervisor about your reasons for your concerns. I (sadly) suspect you won't be the first woman to give birth with these past experiences and concerns. Make sure that when you go into labour, if there is no one familiar in the room with you that you explain it again. You could possibly ask the supervisor for a written letter to go in your notes where she explains the situation, you could give that to the new HCPs you meet during delivery? That would probably have more weight than you or your DP trying to explain things verbally during a very emotional time.

Re examinations without consent, there is sometimes an element there that either you don't really remember being asked - I know I was out of it (in quite a lovely way) on G&A and I'm sure they did ask me, I just wasn't paying attention! But if you have your DP on standby to make sure they aren't performing any examinations without express explanation and consent.

If a doula really is out of your reach, you might be able to ask the hospital if a student midwife would want to come and be with your during the birth, just to increase your sense of comfort?

In the event of an emergency, the need to preserve life will come above your desire.

That c-section you said u wud be fine with a man as unconscious needs him to see you to consent.

I believe most hospitals have midwives that specialise in looking after women who have been sexually assaulted in the past. might be worth asking the SOM

Do talk to the SoM about the strength of your worries so it can be highlighted properly on your notes. Also have you plans for your DH to be there all the way through or might he be at work or something? Do you have a friend who could come along too, to ensure you aren't alone with hospital staff even when DH needs the loo etc? If you end up in theatre only one person is allowed with you so might help to know a friend will.stay with you while DH gets into scrubs.

It's most likely that even in an emergency there will be women to do the touching but possibly under male supervision - and most anaesthetists are male. At least now you are aware of the worst case scenario and can prepare for it, so any shortage of female staff on the day won't be quite the shock it might have been.

Also the hospital may have a perinatal counselling and/or psych team who can be very helpful - the SoM can arrange referral. In the timescales it's unlikely they'll make your anxiety go away but can ensure you get proper info on medication and your rights and hospital procedures and ensure the right people are made aware. They can be exceptionally good if you need anti-anxiety or similar meds and run into staff who just assume you can't take anything.

And complain about lack of sympathy from the consultant - yes male carers may be necessary in emergency but can and should be planned to be avoided in your circs. Though don't compare to airports etc - the only right is to a female chaperone.
Good luck.

Oh crap Citrus, I hadn't thought of half of that! Work have to let DP leave when I go into labour, don't they?? I'd assumed that was the case, and I sure as hell won't be going anywhere without him! Hadn't thought about him having to go to the loo/etc either. I'm sure I'd be fine as long as I'm either alone or with a midwife I like and trust, but thankyou for making me aware of this.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions - I might well ask if there's any chance of a friendly student to be with me, or if not I guess I can try my best friend - the difficulty is, she lives at the other end of the country! I will also try to speak to the SoM - anyone know how I do this? Contact the hospital?

Oh, on a note of general interest, anyone know why they can't rota staff according to gender on maternity wards so there's always a highly-qualified woman available? On the gynae ward at one of my locals, all staff were female and I was told they had it that way for ptn's comfort, though I don't know if it's widespread practice...

On a practical level - there are hardly any male midwives. If it is only 'intimate examinations' that you don't want a man to do - then there will most likely be a suitable female available to examine you instead. And they will always provide a chaperone if you want/need one. If you tell them you are requesting this because of previous sexual trauma/abuse they will accommodate you as much as they can, I am sure.

If your birth goes to plan, then it is highly unlikely there will be any men around. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that having a man in the labour room with you can increase the risk of cascade of intervention. It's all to do with their hormones counteracting your hormones.

However, if you do need medical intervention, there will probably be men involved, but if that happens you won't care anyway because the safe arrival of baby will take priority.

Have you thought about a doula? Some of the student ones will do it very cheaply in order to get the experience. That way you will feel you have an advocate in the delivery room.

I've had 3 births and never had a male in the delivery room other than dp.

When things were going pear shaped with dd the mw told me there was a male student doc outside who wanted to observe but she stressed 'You can say no'. I declined, I would have been fine with him being there from the beginning but there was a very real risk I was about to lose dd and I had a very visceral reaction to a man coming in to avail of the drama when he'd had no interest in being present when things were going fine.

After birth all exams were done by female staff, male consultants signed off on my discharge but I was never examined by a man, a female obstetrician examined me after dd's birth.

You're entitled to your feelings, whether or not others share or understand them. And many women who previously have no issue with male doctors such as myself often experience intense feelings on the matter while in labour, I never imagined myself saying no to a male observer but the intense feeling of horror and revulsion I felt when asked surprised me.

If you contact PALS (patient advice and liaison, Google it for your hospital) they will put you in touch with the right people

Quietlysuggests: Do you mean I was being aggressive? I'm pretty sure I wasn't - I've checked with DP as I know sometimes doctors think I'm being awkward or difficult when I get nervous, and he said I was ok. I was pretty quiet really; I think the most confrontational thing I said was "I really can't cope with that" - said quietly whilst in tears.

ThurlHo: Thankyou. Googling it now.

DS had a moderately difficult birth and when I delivered the room seemed crowded but the only men I saw in labour aside from DH were the anithetist (and I didn't have to have the epidural) and the paediatrician who DS was quickly passed to to be whisked to the resus table. He didn't touch me and at that moment I was mostly worried about DS.

I think it would be a good idea to get a HCP (your midwife or SoM) to write down on your notes the strength of your feeling about the matter.

OP - you may find it helpful to produce a 1-page summary for staff caring for you, not so much a birth plan as a quick reminder of.your fears so you don't have to articulate them in the moment, and a flowchart of what you'd like to happen in various scenarios - mine mentioned I was terrified of an epidural but given I can't take pethidine it might be necessary, so when it looked like the best option the staff were extra reassuring about it. It also said no touching of any sort without my EXPLICIT consent - this really helped even if being asked to take my blood pressure got tedious by the 40th time...

Despite a really long labour ending in theater and about 50 staff involved, the only men were a consultant who helped turn me over, two anaesthetists who oversaw epidural, and a chap who did some paperwork and seemed to have the role of standing at my head and telling bad jokes, until he said excuse me, I need to give you this injection - that should stop the haemorrhaging.

Another point - check if DH is allowed to stay after birth if you have to stay in. Some postnatal wards chuck all men out after visiting hours so you might be on your own stuck in bed with a drip, unless you arrange for a companion or private room.

Thanks again, Citrus.

I've just been on the phone to a lovely lady who is Matron and SoM at the RVI. She was more than accommodating and very reassuring, so I may well transfer there. I would certainly feel more confident than with Northumbria and, unlike the consultant yesterday who made out I was being silly, she took my feelings at face value, accepted them, and reassured me that sadly they've dealt with this before and they will do their best for me. She said nothing will be done without my explicit consent, even in a life-threatening situation, I will always have a (female) midwife with me and I can have a student or extra chaperone for any examinations if I wish, and that they have female obstetricians and other doctors too so they will get me a female if at all possible even if it means sourcing them from another dept. Much more reassuring than the 'Well you'll have to!" I got from the consultant with Northumbria yesterday!

Citrus: If I go to the RVI MLU, DP will be allowed to stay 24/7. I just need to have the 'high-risk' flag removed now.... That's a joke n all.