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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Fighting for ELCS after coccyx damage from first birth

5 replies

barbar123 · 13/12/2013 13:27

I've just had an appointment with an obstetrician where I requested an ELCS for the birth of my second child to prevent further damage to my coccyx. I was told that due to high BMI (BMI 43) and the risks attached to it they are unlikely to perform it. I left the appointment feeling disappointed and very scared of suffering the same pain as I have suffered since delivery.

My story is this...

17 months ago, after being induced, I pushed for 2.5 - 3 hours, and I was eventually taken to theatre to have one try to deliver by forceps and if that failed I would go for emergency CS. Luckily after two pushes my son was born, weighing 10lb 10oz, with a 39cm head circumference and very long.

Since then I have suffered with coccydynia. For the first 6 months after he was born I struggled to go from sitting to standing, when sitting it would feel like a knitting needle sending a shooting pain through me. Walking up stairs and trying to walk more than a short distance would be painful and it was too painful to drive at that time. I took codeine constantly, but I have a low tolerance to it and spent most of my time like a zombie, but still had pain. I was very lucky to have avoided post natal depression considering the pain I was in. After the first six months I had a steroid injection in my sacro-coccygeal space which improved the pain by 50%. I could get a bit more active again and had hope that I might be able to work again after mat leave.

I've had another steroid injection since which helped a bit and I've managed to get back to work as a nurse on reduced hours. I still have pain, I can't sit properly, I can't walk long distances and I feel guilty alot of the time because I can't get down to the floor to play with my son.

I'm 21 weeks pregnant now and the thought of having another person come past my coccyx petrifies me, I can't see any way that natural birth wouldn't cause further damage. This time I will have two boys to look after (my first will be 21 months) and my family wont be around long term to help like last time.The doctor said that my recovery from CS would be longer than a natural birth, which I found funny because I still haven't recovered from my last birth!

The last thing that I want is an emergency CS, I've done my research and I know that it is far more dangerous. But I am quite convinced I will fail at natural birth. To me and my family the only logical option is an ELCS.

Thankyou for reading my waffle! It has helped just writing it down but I don't know what to do now, I feel trapped, powerless, scared and confused. Do I go to a different hospital who will perform ELCS or do I keep my fingers crossed that I wont get more damage from a natural birth, effectively going back to square one?

OP posts:
ZingChoirsOfAngels · 13/12/2013 14:05

sorry, I only skimmed through - guidelines have changed recently (literally a few months ago) so you can just request an ELSC even if you have no actual medical reason to do so.

BUT you have a very good reason to have an ELSC, so I think you need to try and persuade them or find another hospital.
don't let them bully you into something that could potentially really harm you!

and whatever reason they give you for not willing to do it just ask" ok, but what if I needed an EMSC, to save our lives? would you not perform one, due to me high BMI? hmm?
well, there you go then, just book me in, please"

(and about your BMI - I wonder if there's anything to bring it down a bit? not suggesting that you should, and I have no idea what other medical conditions you have, but I would talk to GP and ask if there's anything at all you could do.
sorry if that sounds stupid.

a friend of mine had gestational diabetes with her second and because of associated risks she simply decided to lay off chocolate, sugar etc. as much as possible.
her weight gain slowed down dramatically and baby was a normal weight, so no intervention was necessary.
of course it is not that easy, but it worked for her.

I really hope you see what I mean by all that, absolutely not judging you whatsoever! only suggesting that there might be something to do.)

good luck!

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2013 15:43

barbar123, I think your circumstances are quite complex and I think its wrong that you have been refused an ELCS in the way you have. It should have been explained to you better so you feel listened to and properly informed. From what you've said it does sound like you don't feel like you have been given enough information to understand why they are saying what they are.

It is true that NICE have recommended that women be allowed an ELCS on maternal request, if they want one regardless of medical need. They particularly focus on anxiety though. It does sound like you are extremely anxious, but I'm not sure that anxiety is your main issue here. I think its whether you think might have more damage to your coccyx which is a slightly different kettle of fish. I think you need to look at what exactly your fears are and why you are considering an ELCS though to determine whats really motivating you.

In terms of your BMI and a CS, there are definitely more risks than normal and think you need to give them careful consideration before you push for an ELCS.

The most recent NICE guidelines also make a point that they do not recommend an ELCS for women with a bmi of over 50 on the basis of their BMI alone. Now obviously you are not this big, but I think its relevant to you, because it does seem to show that NICE can't see a benefit to ELCS for BMI. I think its possibly worth asking a few questions about why this is.

From what I can see in the data in the document it doesn't seem to show its better (or indeed worse). In fact the only conclusion that really seems to come out of it is that the quality of research is generally poor. Which isn't particularly helpful to you. But they certainly didn't feel that they could recommend an ELCS based on BMI and thats after they weighed up the potential risks.

Reading what you have said, it seems that one of your biggest fears is that you are worried that you will end up with the worst case scenario of an EMCS and that you are at elevated risk of this due to your BMI. You might be, but this isn't as straightforward as it initially sounds. Are you looking at data that is for first time mothers and/or does it take into account previous births? One of the best indicators of whether you are capable of giving birth vaginally, is whether you have done so previously or not. In your case your doubts about whether you possibly more reflective about how you feel about the birth rather than the statistical chances of you being psychically able to. (That doesn't take into account whether this will cause you more damage to your coccyx though). You say you are quite convinced you will fail at natural birth but you have succeeded in the past. In terms of the 'logical choice of a ELCS', given your circumstances it is perhaps less logical than you might want to believe. You probably have a better chance than you are currently perceiving.

Indeed all the comparisons between planned VBs and planned ELCS in the NICE guidelines are based only on women who have had one child. On balance NICE say that women should be allowed a ELCS on maternal request on the basis of this information as it is comparatively safe. However, this data is misleading to women who have already had children, and it doesn't give a true picture of the risks to women who then have a second child and this is the major criticism of NICE's recommendations. It means that the NICE guidelines make ELCS look better than they should for women who have had a VB.

Having a higher BMI does have certain extra risks. I believe the main two are problems with anaesthesia (more likely to fail) and wound infections.

The rate for wound infections for all types of CS for all women is 9.6% but it is disproportionately higher in women with a high BMI or under 20. Women with a BMI of over 30 are over 2.4 times more likely to have an infection than women with a normal BMI (and the risk is higher, if your BMI is more than that).

Now having said all that, I am definitely pro-choice. The point is you need to be informed to make that choice. And thats where I think your consultant has failed you. It sounds like he has told you what they are going to do, rather than properly explain why it is more difficult and risky for them to do an ELCS and why given the risk of an EMCS, they feel it might be better for you to attempt another VB anyway.

I think in order for you to go ahead with a VB you need better support and advice than you have been given. And I think to go down the route of an ELCS you need better information about the additional risks than I can give you.

So thats what I would be saying you should be pushing for, rather than an ELCS as such at this stage. I would also be pushing for a referral to someone who can give you more information about how likely further damage to your coccyx is. What you may find is they say that once the damage has been done, it is unlikely to get any worse and that may influence your decision. The fact that you say you are confused and feel powerless are actually the issues you have right now and thats because you have been given inadequate advice and support. You might want to consider changing hospitals for this reason, rather than perhaps whether they will perform an ELCS or not. You have to have trust in the people who are caring for you and believe that they will involve you in any decisions about your care, which clearly doesn't seem to be the case here.

TheXxed · 13/12/2013 15:49

Congratulations on your pregnancy. Unfortunately I can't add anything of merit to this thread.

I just wanted to say redtoothbrush post is why I love MN. Thoughtful, informative and kind.

barbar123 · 16/12/2013 13:47

Thankyou ever so much for responding to my post. I've been thinking about what you have both said for the last few days. My brain feels a bit frazzled about the while situation.

ZingChoirsOfAngels - It makes sense what you have said about weight loss or lack of weight gain. Whether I have a natural birth or CS it will be safer all round to keep it under control. I've done pretty well so far - I've put on 5lb and I'm 22 weeks. When I had my first I only put on a stone (10lb 10oz of that being my baby) and a fair amount of that was in the last few weeks of pregnancy.

RedToothBrush - You have given me an awful lot to think about. You are right that I am not informed. I think I need to properly understand the reasons for their reluctance to perform CS but I also need to understand the risks of a natural birth and if it is possible to protect my coccyx. I'm not sure how I can give informed consent when I'm not properly informed.
My mum reminded me that the doctor hinted that due to funding they are trying to reduce their CS rates. He also said, which I had forgotten, that I might have more luck at a different hospital from his previous experience of working at other local hospitals.

I think I need to give it all some more thought, I would like a plan to be agreed on so I can just get on and enjoy the rest of my pregnancy, so I don't have this hanging over me anymore. Thankyou both very much. You have helped.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/12/2013 14:56

The reducing CS rates thing is bullshit as it is based on a fear of numbers rather than whether its actually medically better/worse for the woman concerned and it makes me so angry. Its just politics not health care. (And don't even get me started on the cost argument). Its also largely defunct as an idea now as WHO decided to abandon recommended optimum rates in 2009 when they decided that there was absolutely no evidence to support a certain rate and instead recommended only that "any woman who needs a CS has access to a CS".

If the policy of the hospital you are at is more concerned about rates than welfare that would be a big worry for me. It actually sounds like the doctor is actually under pressure from above. The fact that he said you might have more luck at another hospital is actually appalling when you start to think about it. At first it does appear that he is trying to somehow help you, but he actually isn't. His priority should be whats best for you and to hell with targets. It might well be the case that medically a vb might be better for you and thats the advice he should be giving you - not hinting that you might find it easier elsewhere!!! Ethically I do not know where to start with that...

...actually I do. The GMC say the following:
The General Medical Council (GMC) sets for doctors in our core guidance Good medical practice.

*Doctors must provide good care
*Doctors must put patients’ safety first and make sure the care they provide is safe and effective
*Doctors must treat patients as individuals
*Doctors must be honest and trustworthy

How can patients be being treated as individuals when the rate of CS is more important than properly advising and looking at the needs of a woman and whether you as a doctor would recommend a CS or a VB in her personal circumstances? If they are failing to do that, then how are they putting patient safety first either???!!!!

No wonder we have a massive issue with trust in healthcare.

I've just seen another thread today where a woman had to go to another hospital because of policy over woman centred care.

Sorry, but twice in one day just irks me so much I can't help but rant. Hospitals with a policy of actively reducing rates need to be challenged for it. We need to focus on what is best for that woman and her child instead - which may include stopping defence medicine but equally listens to the needs and concerns of women and tries them as whole individuals with physical and emotional needs that are as important as the child they are carrying.

barbar123, I hope you are able to get access to the information you need and have the support of a doctor who is more interested in you than how he is judged in his job by a bunch of pen-pushers with no interest in good health care.

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