The Observer's health editor says women ought to have C-sections instead of vaginal delivery.

[dizietsma]

\link{http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/news/0,,1723873,00.html\link to article}

I'm appalled. I haven't read it all the way through yet, but you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be writing to the Observer to complain about this shocking and irresponsible opinion piece.

Notasheep said: 'And homebirths dont have C sections!' really? So, do they let the woman and baby die if something goes wrong? I have only two friends who attempted homebirths and both ended up in hospital, one with a c/s and one with ventouse. So I don't think you can categorically say that if you choose a homebirth you will never have a c/s. In fact when I asked the mw about homebirth she said that she would be happy to arrange that for me as long as I didn't live more than one hour away from the next hospital.

WWW, I'm not sure you understood me correctly. You said: 'it doesn't mean I have to agree with you!' I'm very happy to agree to disagree, that's what discussions are all about. No problem, but I am concerned about how keen you are to restrict another person's choices. I grew up in the former GDR (East Germany) and I know how it feels to have no choices and to have my decisions made for me, of course always with the argument that they know what's best for me. It didn't feel good, perhaps that's why I'm so sensitive about that subject. Nevermind.

Anyway, I am very sad that the NHS doesn't give women a free choice.

Thanks for the book suggestion anyway. I shall see if I can get it at the library because I'm really interested to read their study because last night when I surfed the net for all these statistics I found statistics saying exactely the opposite. If you want I can see if I find the links again. My mw always said that safety in homebirth is directionally proportional to the distance from the next hospital. I.e the nearer you are to the next hospital the safer it is. (Now, let me say that I think homebirths are a great thing I was just using the example in my earlier post to argue for consistency.)

Rochwen, it was your use of "You can help them find information but you must not, and I repeat you must not, take the freedom of making that choice themselves away from them" I was responding to - I was objecting to 'you must not, and I repeat you must not' bit - I disagree, as you know so I guess I was pointing out that it isn't true just because you say it is, that was my point. But, I agree, debate and discussion is a good thing! I don't think choice always = a bad thing either of course!

We can all post anecdotal evidence here so here's mine to counter your 2 friends who had home births resulting in transfer. I know of:

1 10lb at home no stitches
1 10lb at home, all fine
1 10lb 5ox at home, all fine
1 9lb 8oz at home, all fine
1 7lb at home, all fine

But I don't think it proves anything other than I know several people who've had successful home births!

WWW said: 'But, I agree, debate and discussion is a good thing! I don't think choice always = a bad thing either of course!' See, that's totally cool. I'm happy with that ! :)

Ah, but I did mean I don't always think choice = a bad thing ONLY if it's NOT wrt c sections! so I was clarifying that I don't think all choice is bad. I hope that makes it clear! We do disagree (and nothing wrong with that) on this :)

lol

Sorry, WWW, but the NHS as a whole does not actually refuse sections to first time mothers with no complications. In my antenatal clas which was made up of... I don't know. Around ten women, two of them elected for a caesarean for absolutely no medical reason at all. They got them just for asking. One of them is now pregnant again and the midwife said, "I don't suppose you've changed your views?" She said "no." And off she went to the consultant. I think she has the date now. Baby due end of May. And the other one... Oh I love the hypocricy of this. She works for the NHS and led a study on Caesaeans on the NHS. The outcome of the study was that they sheould be less accessible on the NHS. This study was published just before she requested one for herself. She requested because she was afraid of giving birth vaginally. So, my friends, it is all in your approach and determination to get what you want. It's just a pity that you have to find out through the back door that these things are in fact on offer if you know where to go.

It's interesting that those advocation natural birth on this thread want it for everyone and those advocating caesarean only want it as a choice. The removal of choice is indeed a scary thing. Have to completely agree with Rochwen on that point.

Uwila, quick question here, since I had my first baby by section does that mean I can ask for my next one (should I decide to have another one) to be delivery by elective c/s? Will it be easy or will they try to get me to try VBAC?

BTW, this is but one example of why the NHS should be renamed the RPCLHS (regional post code lottery helth system).

So uwila, have I understood this correctly? That the NHS would like to refuse sections but don't in reality? Ok. Why was the outcome of the study that sections should be less accessible on the NHS, do you know?

sorry I meant 'to be delivered'.

The reason for my section was that my baby suddenly turned herself breech and in the process broke the water. So, I'm worried that they'll argue that if the baby is not breech again I should try it vaginally.

rochwen, I'd have thought it very likely that you'll get a section if you ask for one (and I have no issue with that, not that it would make any difference to you, I'm sure!) and that you'd have to push harder, pardon the pun, to get a VBAC.

It depends on the hospital's policy and the consultant's views. Some will readily recommend a section. Some will try to convince you of VBAC. But, in most cases, if you put your agument forward, say you ar concerned about scar rupture, put it in writing, and stick to your guns, they will give you an elective section. Current guideline is to scedule you at 36 weeks (which is way too late in my opinion) for a section at 39 weeks. I would also recommend you do some hospital research and the second you get a positive test back start jumping up and down about what hospital you want to go to (even if you are not in the area). And, of course, choose a hospital with a high caesarean rate.

Ah, now my baby was born week 35 (or week 33 depending of whether you listen to the mw or dr), so leaving it to week 36 to make an appointment for week 39 would be, well pointless. See this is what I'm worried about that they'll leave it so late that I actually go into labour before they can fit me and then I can just hear them say, 'Ah well, you've started now, let's see how it goes'. I would want some sort of quarantee that should I go into labour early they would take me straight to theatre fro a section.

WWW, I don't know much about the study. My friend told me about it after we had had our babies. She was confessing her hipocracy, really. Saying how awkward it was for her to make the request.

Rochwen, there is a good chance that they will try to talk you into VBAC. I went to Queen Charlotte to have DS last May after point blank refusing to appear at St, Peters (I'm in the catchment for St. Peters). They did try and persuaade me for VBAC, but I stodd strong, brought in the nice guideline, and highlighted the bit about considering mother's preference. I didn't really need the guideline in the end. But, I had it ready.

I also considered asking them to knock me out with a GA. But, I was talked out of that.

On a lighter note, who is going to choose a c section over a vaginal delivery from reading the Observer columnist then?
How can the media and NHS help to reduce the fear of normal birth, to promote a womans physiology as a good reason for pursuing a natural labour and delivery.
I had 2 natural deliveries, I'm not sure why I had this desire. I did know (at that time) that a c section was for babies who got stuck, who get into distress and for mothers with serious health risks. When I was 22 and had ds, there was no one at all I knew who "chose" a c section for any other reason than one of those above. And I ran a mother and new baby support group and saw over 500 post natal women a month.

I think the pyschology of birth is really interesting. Teh fear? Why?
Perhaps there is some sense in asking people to financially contribute for truly elective sections, I don't know. I'm sure that view is controversial, I don't mean it to be. I'm just thinking out loud.

I'm just amazed as why women have stopped being so good at giving birth themselves I guess. (And that's not meant for women who obviously owe their and/or their babies lives to c sections)

Rochwen, if you really really want this, you just need to cause a stink and you'll most likely get it.

Mind if I ask where you are? You can check out various statistics on www.birthchoice.co.uk and www.drfoster.co.uk.

A doula I spoke to reckoned the culture of fear surrounding childbirth has a lot to answer for. Interesting questions piffle.

good post piffle

I agree with what you are saying

Yes, Piffle. I think you ask some interesting questions. I, personally, that fear of childbirth is but one consequence of an incresing frustration and distrust of the NHS these days. We here so many problems and truly tragic stories about the NHS, that we don't trust our birth to be managed appropriately. I am one of these people. There were two horrific stories on this site when I was pregnant with DS. Both resulted in a dead baby. And I though no way no how would I trust the NHS to intervene when it's necesarry. "I'm sorry. We srewed up." is very little consolation when you have a dead baby.

Some good points piffle. I think some of the reasons why women have a harder time giving birth could be that a) due to improved nutrition and ante-natal care babies are getting bigger and bigger, in the 1970's the average baby was 6lbs and now it's more 8lbs, I'm sure that makes a difference. Also, I do think they interfere more with the birthing process, like the author of the report that Soph found said, if they only left women more time during the second phase of labour then a lot of interventions could possibly be prevented, and finally I do think that confidence plays a large role too. I certainly didn't have the confidence that I could do it. I was just too scared. I think rather than 'working with the pain' as the mw advice I would have just been a useless weeping heap in the corner begging to put down. Honestly ! I just don't think I could do it and I think with that attitude a vaginal birth would have been a total disaster for me. So, I'm really grateful that my wee girl took the decision away from me.

So I truly regared an elective section as the safest way to bring him into this world. You can lay down all the statistics you want. I believed it was safer to schedule an elective section. And if I ever have another baby I will most certainly do the same again.

Ok, I'll probably get shot down for saying this but...
After all three of my vaginal deliveries, I experienced what I can only describe as an overwhelming feeling of exhilaration and powerfulness (kind of like you get when you do a parachute jump, if you can relate to that), and I think that really helped me get through the first few days of my babies' lives.
I assumed it was some kind of hormonal rush.
Do you get that if you have a CS?

I think it is a shame that women feel so frightened and poorly supported that they opt for caesarians for no other reason than that they feel it is safer.
I would definitely concur that OBS/GYNAE doctors from SHO's upwards are not the best people to advise on normal delivery. The last normal delivery they will have been present at will be their med school rotation. My sister attended 3 normal births at med school - that's it. She did two OBS/GYNAE rotations post med school in her normal training before specialising and she did not attend another natural delivery because the doctors are not called unless intervention is required.

Uwila, if you truly made your birth choices based on two terribly sad and harrowing stories of the two mothers on MN (and they were dreadful outcomes) then you can see exactly how the media and medical staff heavily influence the culture of fear surrounding childbirth.
I do not believe in judging mothers for their birth choices. I really really want birth to better portrayed and celebrated.