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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

The Observer's health editor says women ought to have C-sections instead of vaginal delivery.

458 replies

dizietsma · 05/03/2006 15:32

\link{http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/news/0,,1723873,00.html\link to article}

I'm appalled. I haven't read it all the way through yet, but you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be writing to the Observer to complain about this shocking and irresponsible opinion piece.

OP posts:
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lockets · 07/03/2006 18:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bundle · 07/03/2006 18:21

don't you mean "fanjo" enid?

lockets · 07/03/2006 18:23

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Enid · 07/03/2006 18:36

'fanjo' reserved solely for my battle scarred vag

snafu · 07/03/2006 18:44

I believe - and I don't have the facts at my fingertips right now but will try and find them if anyone's interested - that medical students are required to be present at four non-instrumental, non-surgical births in the course of their training. Four 'normal' births in seven years' training. Student midwives, by contrast, are required to witness five non-surgical, non-instrumental deliveries before they are even allowed to get their hands anywhere near a labouring woman Smile

No-one is trying to discredit ob/gyns. But to suggest that they are just as well-informed about 'normal' (and I do feel I must keep putting that in inverted commas in case I get jumped on...) vaginal birth is simply not true. It's just not. They just don't see them. They are called in when things go wrong, and they are extremely valuable in those situations, obviously. But medical training is about 'normal only in retrospect', about pathology (and in obstetrics more than any other branch of medicine, about litigation). So, it's not a case of 'less hands-on experience of normal delivery' - it's a case of 'virtually none' - and that's just a fact.

Heathcliffscathy · 07/03/2006 19:08

find me any research, any at all, that says that elective c-section is safer than normal birth with no contraindications in pregnancy or during labour and i'll find you a horde of flying fangos.

how on earth can having anaesthesia and undergoing major abdominal surgery be in any way shape or form 'as safe'????

[goes for a lie down]

bundle · 07/03/2006 19:14

quite agree, soph, i would never have opted for my 2 c/s if i hadn't needed them for medical reasons.

Heathcliffscathy · 07/03/2006 19:19

i've found someone that agrees, an obstetrician btw, i know this is long, but he makes the points pretty clearly imo:

Elective Cesarean Section: An Acceptable Alternative to Vaginal Delivery?
Dr Peter Bernstein, MD, MPH;
Peter S. Bernstein, MD MPH, Associate Professor of Clinical Obstetrics & Gynecology and Women's Health, Dept of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Albert Einstein College of Medicine / Montefiore Medical Center, and Medical Director, Obstetrics & Gynecology , Comprehensive Family Care Center / Montefiore Medical Group, Bronx, New York

Excerpt --> One argument often cited in favor of elective cesarean delivery is prevention of pelvic floor damage, which can occur with vaginal delivery. Stress urinary incontinence, pelvic organ prolapse, and anal incontinence have been associated with vaginal delivery.

But these adverse side effects may be more the result of how current obstetrics manages the second stage of labor. Use of episiotomy and forceps has been demonstrated to be associated with anal incontinence in numerous studies.

Perhaps also vaginal delivery in the dorsal lithotomy position with encouragement from birth attendants to shorten the second stage with the Valsalva maneuver [prolonged breath-holding], as is commonly practiced in developed countries, contributes significantly to the problem.

Nonetheless, the prevention of pelvic floor injury by routine elective cesarean delivery is not an appropriate solution. Rather, more research into the management of the second stage of labor is clearly necessary. Moreover, cesarean delivery does not guarantee protection against pelvic floor dysfunction, given the reports of similar rates of urinary incontinence in nulliparous woman as in parous women [2]

A potentially more persuasive argument in favor of elective cesarean delivery is based on the potential for fetal risks before and during vaginal delivery, including intrapartum death, intrapartum acquired hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy, and stillbirth at term before the onset of labor. What is not clear, however, is how many cesareans would have to be performed to avert these disastrous event and what the cost would be in terms of maternal morbidity and mortality in order to prevent a single untoward fetal outcome.

To suggest that performing an elective cesarean delivery in a low-risk patient will avert intrapartum fetal injury is very misleading. These outcomes are rare, even in higher-risk women. Indeed, they are so rare in women without any identifiable risk factors that an absurd number of cesarean deliveries would need to be performed to avert even one of these poor outcomes. Thus, resorting to cesarean delivery would not be appropriate standard procedure.

Although cesarean delivery has clearly become safer over the past 50 years with advances in antibiotics, anesthesia and thromboprophylaxis, it is still not without risks. Woman undergoing cesarean delivery have greater blood loss and risk of damage to internal organs. The mortality risk of under going an elective cesarean delivery with no emergency present has recently been reported as almost 3 times the risk of vaginal delivery. [3] In addition, risks to the fetus associated with cesarean delivery range from lacerations [a cut in the baby's face or head when the surgeon makes the incision into the uterus] to respiratory distress syndrome and transient tachypnea of the newborn. Although these are typically manageable, their cost will be multiplied many times over if more elective cesareans are performed.

One of the most significant risks of cesarean delivery is the need for a subsequent cesarean delivery. ... A repeat cesarean delivery carries significantly more risk in terms of placenta previa, placenta accreta, uterine rupture, injury to internal organs during surgery excessive blood loss, need for hysterectomy and maternal death. These risks rise with each subsequent repeat cesarean delivery. Risk of [placenta] accreta and previa increases with each subsequent cesarean delivery, reaching a risk of > 60% in women with 4 or more cesarean deliveries. [4] In addition, the incidence of emergency peripartum hysterectomy for abnormal placentation seems to be rising as a result of the increase rates of cesarean delivery.

A move toward routine elective cesarean delivery may also have significant costs in terms of lost opportunities for bonding between mother and newborn. A woman who has had a cesarean may be less able to care for her child and may have a more difficult time breastfeeding ..... Although this impact may be small for the individual patient, again, its costs multiplied over a large population may be great, based on the accumulating evidence for the benefits of successful long-term breastfeeding.

Arguments made by proponents of elective cesarean that it should only be provided to women who intend to have only 1 or 2 children fall flat, given that the rates of unintended pregnancy in the US approach 50%. And what of the woman who changes her mind 10 years later and chooses to have another child after having had 2 prior cesareans?

There may be no legal liability to the physician who performed the patient's first cesarean section when the patient winds up with a hysterectomy or worse, but that does not clear that physician of responsibility for performing a surgical procedure of unclear benefit upon a patient's request.

Some argue that, from an ethical point of view, allowing a patient to choose to deliver by cesarean is not substantially different from allowing her to choose to undergo cosmetic surgery. But cesarean is very different. The benefits of elective cesarean relative to vaginal delivery are not established and the risks are substantial, especially given the potential for future repeat cesareans.

That women are seeking elective cesarean deliveries is probably more significant in that it indicates the failure of modern medicine and society at large in the sense that women may fear the experience of labor and birth attendants may fear the legal risks of allowing appropriate women to have a trial of labor. Modern management of labor should be reassessed to address the concerns raised by proponents of elective cesarean delivery. If elective cesarean becomes an acceptable alternative, we may never be able to undo the practice.

welshmum · 07/03/2006 19:21

Rachp just had to say that both times my consultant took the time to come and see me and the baby, and also sent her registrar to check up on us. She also sent me a lovely letter a few weeks after the baby was born....they're not all dreadful.
I was also feeling guilty about the cost to the NHS of the c-section (delusional after deliverySmile) and she gave me a friendly but firm lecture on why an elective c-section saved our lives.

Heathcliffscathy · 07/03/2006 19:23

and the fact that it would have saved your lives is exactly why you should have had it and why we bless modern obstectrics and it's proponents...

bundle · 07/03/2006 19:27

absolutely soph, when i saw a midwife fly-on-the-wall programme a few months back and the young woman in labour wanted a c/s for no particular reason..i was hopping mad Wink

welshmum · 07/03/2006 19:29

I was responding to rachp's implication (sorry if I've got it wrong rachp) that consultant's didn't take the time to do a proper follow up and midwives are more likely to. I just think that if you have the opposite experience you should share it....She was great,a credit to the NHS and if I'd liked her name more dd would have been given it.

RnB · 07/03/2006 19:34

not had a chance to read all these replies, but what a heavily biased article!

But what does interest me is WHY al of these celebritis and rich people DO decide to have elective caesarians when it is not medically necessary. Do they have some kind of insider info about the benefits of caesars over vaginal births? I certainly wouldnt see having a section as an easy option.

I would say, though that doctors need to offer MORE sections to women than they do. E.g. in my case I had to endure over 40 hours of labour (posterior baby). A horrendous experience and I was begging for a section. DS1 was born naturally in the end but I dont think either of us should have gone through that.

WideWebWitch · 07/03/2006 19:46

Rochwen, the 'what's it to you?' argument could be used to suggest that I (or anyone else for that matter) have no right to be interested in or care about, say, the fact that crap food advertising is aimed at children/kids' clothes are tarty/almost any other subject. Just because I can choose not to feed my children crap/dress them in tarty clothes/whatever, i.e. I can limit the effect it has on me and my children doesn't mean I'm not allowed to take an interest or have a view on an issue as a whole, surely?

I do think it's sad that we have a c section rate of 25%: 1 in 4 women don't need (medically, I mean) a section. Thank you for the stats explanation, it's interesting. But imo we should be a long way from reading those and coming to the conclusion that all women should be offered a section or that all women should be allowed to if they want to without good medical reason. Not a terribly popular view I know. But I don't think choice always equals a Good Thing.

CarolinaMooncup · 07/03/2006 20:52

Sophable, that's a fascinating article.

V scary stat about the risk of placenta accreta with repeat c-sections Shock

rachp · 07/03/2006 20:54

Like www, I worry ... worry a lot for my own kids. Are they going to grow up in a world where there is so much fear and panic that they don't even trust that their bodies can give birth without an operation :(

I'm so not against choice. But wish there was something we could do to instil the confidence not to be afraid of birth, to empower us to get good births - not induced, made to lie down, constantly monitored, prodded and poked, waters broken, cascade of intervention - but a really GOOD birth. Honest, it is possible. Wish we didn't have to fight for it though and that it was the norm, not the medicalised drama its become.

Hey, maybe we should all go out and give birth under trees Wink

notasheep · 07/03/2006 21:30

At no time was a C section suggested to me but i also NEVER mentioned it at any appointments.

We cannot stop too posh to push having c sections however why cant they just be done when NEEDED.

Im with you WWW and rachp

They never seem to show women on the tv giving birth on all fours!!!!!

Piffle · 07/03/2006 21:38

Define "safe"
mmmmmm

Rochwen · 08/03/2006 09:45

ooooops this turned out a wee bit long ... sorry.

WWW said: 'doesn't mean I'm not allowed to take an interest or have a view on an issue as a whole, surely?' Absolutely, of course you are allowed to take an interest! In fact, I think it is important that women inform themselves, have discussions and opinions and don't just blindly follow the advice of an expert. This is what I mean by making an 'informed' choice. I think the kind of discussions we have here on mumsnet help us in doing that. So, I'm all for you and everyone else taking an interest! It's important to think for oneself and not let other people do it, so bring on the discussions !

However, campaigning to take choice away (which is what you are doing by saying women shouldn't be allowed to simply choose a c/s) from people (be it about what birth, food, or clothes they choose) this is where you are entering dangerous territory. In a free society people must be able to make these choices themselves, whether you personally don't agree with their particular choice or not. People must be free to choose. You can help them find information but you must not, and I repeat you must not, take the freedom of making that choice themselves away from them. (sorry way OT)

Back to topic, of course, a straight-forward vaginal birth with no interventions is the safest method of giving birth. I don't think anyone would argue against that but the point is that when a women is ready to have her baby you can never ever guarantee that it will be a straight-forward vaginal birth without interventions. (In fact looking just at my NHS group (and I really don't think we were particularly unlucky) out of our 9 women only 1 (one) had a birth without interventions, so that's a 1 in 9 chance. (...and yes I know first births are always the hardest). However, with an elective c/s you take a very big risk factor out of the equation - unpredictabilty. I can see that that's an attraction for both women and medical professionals. The big side-effects associated with c/s happen very very rarely with a scheduled c/s, those side-effect usually occur in mad dash dire emergency sections where both mother and baby are already in distress and things have to happen quickly.

Soph, thanks for finding the article, it was a very interesting read.

Oh and here's an interesting statistic, homebirths are (there's the word again) statistically less safe than hospital births, so should we argue that women shouldn't be allowed to have homebirths? So in order to be consistant, if the objection to women being allowed to choose elective c/s is on grounds of safety alone then we should object to them choosing homebirths too.

I know this is all really controversial stuff but really the only point that I'm trying to make is that women should be allowed to make their own birth choices be it for an elective c/s, a homebirth or anything in between. I strongly believe that ALL women are able to make informed choices. All the options should be open to them and their choices should be respected.

WideWebWitch · 08/03/2006 10:02

Rochwen, I think the NHS, not me, has already decided pretty much that women shouldn't be able to have a c section just because they want one. I think they're right in this because, and I keep saying this, it's not as safe as vaginal birth. It just isn't. The word Choice is often used to mean "A Good Thing" - it's assumed Choice is good. It isn't always. I could choose to kill myself but that doesn't make it a good, sensible or correct thing to do, does it?

You also say "of course, a straight-forward vaginal birth with no interventions is the safest method of giving birth. I don't think anyone would argue against that" - yes, they would and people have been, on this thread!

And you are wrong about homebirth. Planned homebirth is statistically AS SAFE as hospital birth. A statistician called Marjorie Tew asked her students to prove that homebirth was dangerous. They went away and found that it was not. She wrote a whole book on the subject, it's \link{http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853434264/qid=1141811947/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/026-0014939-6351670\here}.

WideWebWitch · 08/03/2006 10:03

And you can repeat "and you must not" as much as you like, it doesn't mean I have to agree with you!

WideWebWitch · 08/03/2006 10:06

And Rochwen, my comments about taking an interest were in direct response to your comment "WWW...What effect does a woman choosing a c/s on your life? Why can't it be just live and let live. If choosing a c/s makes the life for another woman easier or happier then why not cheer her on?"

Blackduck · 08/03/2006 10:08

Haven't read all the thread...
But when I was going to anti natel classes the midwife told us they had had a call from a woman asking if she could have an elective C setion (the answer was 'no'), and she wasn't even pregnant Shock

It was suggested to me (medical reasons) and I actually escaped it by about 5 minutes (did the last cm as they rushed me into theatre)....I am so with WWW on this - choice isn't always a good thing...

Enid · 08/03/2006 10:18

choice schmoice

notasheep · 08/03/2006 10:18

WWW- you will be pleased to know that Home Births are really quite normal in these parts.

In fact when i went for 1st midwife appointment one of the questions first was: Where would you like to have your baby?!

I was very impressed.

And homebirths dont have C sections!

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