In two minds about having a home birth

[ViolaCrayola]

I had a horrible hospital induction 1st time around (have posted about this before), now 31 weeks with DC2.

Have been seriously considering a home water birth - have terrible SPD and water really helps. Plus all the other pros about home comforts, privacy, 1-1 care etc.

But I am very unsure that I actually want to have a baby at home! People seem to often be either very definite about home births one way or another, but I just feel undecided. Has anyone else felt like this? How did you decide eventually? Time is running out! :)

Why are only low risk women entitled to have her emotional an psychological needs met?

Good point, thunks. If hospitals were all perfect and there were midwives on tap once you got there, I might have been keener to go in, as in some ways, you get more fuss made of you socially when you go to hospital. However the reality is that hygiene is variable, midwives are not always available or friendly, and you end up in a four or six bay ward trying to sleep while other people's children are crying. Not great.

Sorry to bring the thread right back to the beginning, but I missed this yesterday and woke up this morning and it's 11 pages long! I'm sure the thread has gone many twisty turny ways many times but just something from the beginning:

Viola I too would love an HB, and I also live in a first floor flat. We live above a shop so the entrance is a fire escape type staircase that has a very small double parking space immediately at the foot of it. There's usually 3 or 4 cars parked in there from the businesses we live above and next door too. When I mentioned this to the midwife - who btw are very pro-HB - they said "it's your responsibility to get yourself down to the ambulance". It felt very much like "it's your problem".

I would also plan for a HB, knowing I can transfer in if wanting to/needing to. We live 15 minutes from the hospital so that's not the issue. But right now, even at only 6 months, I sometimes have problems squeezing myself around the cars! DH says he'll just run down and shout at everyone to move their cars if it's in the weekday :)

Good luck Viola - I haven't read all the thread so don't know what you're planning but best of luck with whatever you decide.

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I am a hospital based midwife, who, like Carrie370 has seen a diproportionate number of pear shaped births. Women afterwards are frequently amazed that such events could occur, and had no idea before they went into labour. From what I can see, Carrie370 was attempting to highlight the unusual but severe events that can happen during childbirth, because she knows about them. If that allows more women to help them make an informed choice, then I think that is great. people on this thread tend to be middle class and educated, but this is definitely not true of every pregnant woman.

Its posts like Shagmunds which reinforces the reputation of Mumnetters as strident lefties.

More generalisations about lentil weavers Madly?! I'm not a lefty in any way, but still believe that home birth can be the best option in many cases, having see how interventions can lead to more interventions etc. I'm strongly against epidurals, simply from a point of view that I needed to feel what was happening to me to be able to make informed decisions. Those of us who see birth as a natural part of life, not an illness, view it all in a very different way to those who want it to be sanitised and pain free and 'managed' all the way. That doesn't make us lefties, it makes us women with our own opinions.

I'm the kind that has to research, read up, understand counter arguments, look for alternatives and inform myself to the point of near obsession before I make a decision on anything :)

I'm lucky in that my community midwives conducted research and a report a couple of years ago and are very pro-homebirth. The MLU also do a talk at 30 weeks on homebirthing and the options of what the MLU is like. I get that even though I am classed as low risk, anything can happen "on the night" and I understand the risks. I don't want to make a fear-based decision, but rather an informed choice.

I think the thing I find most irritating is that - when asked about my ideal birth by the MWs and when I talk about birthing in water at home, bringing the baby out myself, hypnobirthing etc, it always has to be with the caveat of "but of course things might not go according to plan and I am flexible and accepting of the needing to change the plan" I get why they interject with that but at the same time - I have demonstrated over and over how much I am aware of all that.

I don't know. I don't think you need to be middle class and educated to be open to the possibilities of things going wrong, even if you don't know the finer details of those possibilities. Hubris is far more damaging than lack of knowledge, I tend to think. If an individual has too much pride or is too stubborn to open their eyes to risks, that would bother me more as a MW than someone who doesn't know the finer details of all that can go wrong but is completely open to trusting the MW's judgement in the moment.

Totally agree, homebirth can be fine, but women need to be aware that it is sometimes not. Then they can weigh up the risks and benefits for themselves. This thread has put both sides of the argument quite well, I think.

In the hospital setting, scraping women off the floor when they have been blue-lighted in with an obstetric emergency is no fun at all.

Doingitformyself Completely agree! It's very irritating to be labeled as a leftie in some kind of negative way because I am choosing to see labour as a natural event.

I choose to be involved in the sense that I am embrace the process, not wish for it to be removed for me via complete pain relief. Some people do - some people want it, some people need it - that's entirely their choice. It's not one I think I will make (but let's see in 3 months!).

Say what you like about me being a lentil-weaving leftie but I'll tell you what - throughout this pregnancy I have veered from apprehension to downright looking forward to getting into a position in my head and my body of giving birth. Actively looking forward to those moments. I can't think of anything more primal than the act of giving birth, of embracing my animal self in that moment.

That's not for everyone, I get that. Some people want a sanitised experience - and I am positive reading that, some of you will mock it silently and some of you might mock it right now. But fuck that - this is my choice, my embracing of my body and what it can do :) I feel like we've removed ourselves so much from our instincts and our capabilities and if things go wrong, I'm grateful for all the help available - but I am not going to choose to forgo experiencing something very powerful on the possibility that it might go wrong before it even does.

Madly you're using very emotive language - "scraping women off the floor"- you make it sound like those women were what? Irresponsible for trying it their way first? From what I have read on MN, there are an awful lot of women who had traumatic births at the hands of hospitals and are still trying to pick up the pieces months afterwards - physically and emotionally. I've read too many posts from women on here who have divulged information about things I had no clue about in terms of what can happen in a hospital. Some of it absolutely terrifying and I feel for those woman so badly - is it any wonder we just want to retain some control?

Blimey! I couldn't tell Shagmunds political persuasion from her posts.

Xenia's I know, and I also know she is a strong advocate of hbs.

I think you conclusion about politics is a bit strange tbh.

Scraping them off the floor! Really

No, I don't think it was irresponsible for trying it their way. Just that when they arrive, things are often far down the line, and everything is in 'crash' mode. Different of course if they have just been brought in because of prolonged labour.

Traumatic births at the hands of hospitals - don't you think that some of these births were destined to be difficult, long and complicated, and the doctors and midwives were just doing what they had to do in order to deliver a healthy infant and minimise harm to both mother and baby? The obstetricians generally do not wield scalpels or forceps just for the fun of it!

I would guess any location for an obstetric emergency is pretty un-fun!!! Still, I'd rather have an ambulance/paramedic/MW take me to the hospital, than my DH in the car.

If MW/Dr were omniscient and never made mistakes, there would be no such thing as an obstetric emergency. Bad things happen all the time, wherever you are, there isn't always anything anyone can do.

My niece was seriously ill with asthma and spent 6hrs in resus inches away from death but for an excellent Dr, yet when she went to the ward, in the same hospital, she was subject to some questionable treatment from other drs. My sister spent many hours arguing with them over my niece's treatment but so many were too arrogant to listen!! She also was made to feel that my niece's condition was down to her or my niece, by a so-called expert in the field. I believe this poor attitude from this professor was entirely down to his arrogance and his inability to work out why the normal protocols don't work on my niece. It didn't fit with his experience so therefore they must be wrong, not him.

In short, I have knowledge of the arrogance of drs causing problems, yet I'm not anti-hospital birth, I just don't want it for myself. Been there, done that, have listened to the MWs recommendations & opinions and will be attending the info session on HB in due course. I'm not in it for a mumbo-jumbo, lentil-weaving, hemp-wearing, spiritual experience. I'm doing it because I believe that it is as safe (if not safer) than at hospital, and that not worrying about having to argue my way onto the labour ward or MLU on the day will help me relax, which will help my body do its job & baby will have an easier passage into the world.

I feel sorry, OP, that your thread has become so political. I really hope you have read some things to help you decide whatever is best for you & baby - & at least get a less intervention-based birth this time around. Good luck.

No, but often their 'wielding' is after hours of neglect or encouragement of a woman to accept positions, drugs etc that go against her instincts.

I remember being horrified watching OBEM during the twins delivery. The mw spent a good deal of time trying to convince the mother to have an epidural against the mothers initial wishes. I was shouting at the tele at said midwife until she explained her reasons to another. The obstetric doctor that was on that shift was prone more than others to sticking his hands in and causing pain. The mw was simply trying to reduce the trauma for the woman.

That the epidural was recommended, not because the woman wanted it, not because she woukd have necessarily needed it, but purely because of the preferred practice of the obstetric doctor (who incidentally denied the woman her request for being upright to deliver) was to me.

Madlyjuggling, so why is it that MORE women who are classed prior to giving birth as the SAME risk category have more intervention in a hospital setting than those who plan a homebirth???

You are missing points which are ALSO risks and also as important to a lot of women than others.

What women want is information which isn't loaded with emotive and emotional blackmail type phrases such as "scrapped up off the floor". Just information, not a lecture as if they are 5. So they can make a decision for themselves without feeling judged.

Madly not picking on you specifically BUT you imply those 'crash' situations from home are worse than ones in hospital, yet imply that bad events in hospital are down to what would have happened in birth anyway... Essentially, its a 'emergencies happen at home, but they were always going to go that way in hospital' argument. Mum's 'fault' at home, nobody's 'fault' at hospital. Which is clearly biased and unfair. Sometimes shit happens, so nobody is to blame. Sometimes, being in hospital, laid up immobile, on a bed, with a time-pressured Dr desperate to deliver a baby quickly can surely add to the complications that arise?!!

Yes Madly I do think a difficult birth will be a difficult birth regardless.

But equally, before coming to MN, I was very naive about other kinds of experiences - ones where women have described a sense of having things done to them, choices made for them, a lack of being involved in decisions, a sense of not being treated like a person and the awful impact that had on those women post-birth. I was extremely ignorant of that side of a hospital birth pre-MN and reading many, many women's post of such experiences.

So yes also to how Chunkychicken puts it - the arrogance of doctors causing problems and the effect that has on a woman.

I had a pph after my first birth which put me as high risk for my second. No mention in the notes that pph likely to be caused by poor obstetric practice due to understaffed MLU.

Given that pph caused my mw @ SHO in a hospital there was no way on earth I woukd put myself at risk of that again, so my next two births were the he'll away from dangerous hospital.

Chunkychicken it isn't a matter of fault of mother or hospital, it's simply a matter of time. It's obvious that someone who has started to bleed severely at home is going to be in a worse state than someone who does the same in hospital by the time they get into an operating theatre. And a baby who is in severe fetal distress at home is likely to fare less well than one who can be delivered within 10 minutes because the operating theatre is next door.

The incision-to-delivery time is meant to be as quick as possible, obviously, but within 30 minutes with a category one (immediate threat to life of mother or fetus) section. More easily achieved in hospital.

madly if your argument held water, then we would see it reflected in the statistics on home birth. Yet the statistics do not support what you are saying.

Clearly you think you know better than your own professional college, and are entitled to dish out advice based on your own personal experience. I find this deeply disturbing.

That's not my point at all Madly. I appreciate that there are time delays associated with some home-hospital transfer but the other circumstances to which you alluded were put down to 'they would've gone that way anyway'. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the event, there is no way of knowing for CERTAIN that the long, interventionist births were going to go that way anyway. Perhaps, if the mum had been in different circumstances, they might have been quicker. But that's an 'if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle' type argument.

As for the severe fetal distress you mention, that's rare but happens obviously. Surely you'd trust a MW to notice any early signs wherever s/he is and get baby the help they need asap? I can't believe that a hospital ALWAYS gets it right as far as timing etc is concerned. What if all the theatres are in use because of a cascade of emergencies? Someone, somewhere, has to go to the back of the queue... And as other posts have suggested, some emergencies seem to occur less often at HB. That could be due to the low-risk nature of the pg/birth, but it could also be that mum is in a better place mentally which assists in the better progression of things.

I am certain that home births are, for some, the ER/A&E drs equivalent of a motorbike; they see so many problems resulting from them, they wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. However, I wish those people with differing opinions weren't implied to be risk-happy, baby-disregarding hippies. I wouldn't have an epidural or c-section unless it was truly life or death, but I don't go around smearing those women who choose either as too posh to push, drug-happy & only giving a damn about the state of their fanjo after birth more than anything else!!

I know a chap who is a journalist on large regional newspaper. He has the unfortunate job of covering stories about local murders, rapes, assaults, kids going missing etc. As a result he is utterly convinced that there are paedos on every street corner, and his paranoia makes life difficult for his partner, kids, friends and family.

This is what research is for - to give us the whole picture, rather than being biased by our own personal experiences. Sadly seems there are more than a few health professionals who wouldn't recognise research evidence if it bit them on the arse.

I've had both mine in a midwife led unit attached to the local hospital. Had a lovely waterbirth there for DS1, and seriously considered a homebirth for DS2 as my first birth was so straightforward (went to local homebirth group to research it etc). In the event I decided against it as my husband and mother were not comfortable with it. I had a very straightforward and rapid labour and natural 3rd stage but then had a massive PPH and ended up in intensive care. There were 10 people in the room within a minute of them pulling the emergency cord and I was in theater PDQ- if I was at home with only 2 midwives I would probably have died. What happened to me is rare, and most of the time homebirth is low risk and any complications occur slowly enough to allow a safe transfer, but someone was watching over me when I decided against it.
If there is a "hands off" option like a midwife led unit that is a great compromise between non medicalised birth and being in the "blue-light" zone if the worst happens.

Lots of theories and aneotes here, people who think its just common sense that hospital must be safer, what if things go wrong etc. But none of these stories or theories prove anything. If they were true, then proportionately more adverse events would happen to low risk women at home births. They do not. End of.

See this what fucks me off about MNs
The assumption about being middle class and education.
And that us poor thick working class chavs don't know nuffink
Another patronising hcp.

Yep. I'm probably mc by marriage but never got any a-levels etc.

But somehow I seem to be able to understand research papers better than those privileged enough to be put through med school!?

And what class might THEY be? If not considered mc and educated?