Went to booking appointment at Whittington and spend the day crying, terrified of repeating bad experience that was DS birth.

[theverysuccessfulone]

I'm 11 weeks pg with DC2 and I'm starting to get terrified about the childbirth. Giving birth to DS two years ago was a rubbish experience. Luckily I had an uncomplicated birth, but being treated like shit by the midwives on the most scary and painful day of my life, when I was absolutely vulnerable was, well, shit.

Yesterday I went to the booking appointment at the Whittington and everything came back at once. I know I'm being precious, but I'm very sensitive at the moment (and will be a thousand times more sensitive during labour) and I don't think it's too much to ask for midwives to be NICE to us, is it? (I know it is...)

So, I spent the day panicking thinking of a way of not going throw all this again. I'm so scared of going through triage again, and people treating me like crap, ignoring my feelings and all that. I'm thinking of moving to the UCH but really I don't see how it would help (I suppose there is no hospital in the world where we can guarantee most professionals won't be bitches).

I feel I have no strength left to fight for anything or to brush off nasty people. I'm thinking of hiring a doula but even if I can get a very strong minded advocate, I don't know how it will prevent all the stress.

I considered going private, but it will be a horrible strain for us, and, well, there is no guarantee it will solve the problem. A home birth is not an option: I was told I can only have one with the Royal Free midwives, who attend this area. And as you can imagine, I'm not too keen on this.

PS: In case you're asking about DS's birth: on the day of the birth I wasn't admitted to the birth centre (then afterwards I found out they do that even when it's not full), I wasn't given an epidural when begged for one, midwife broke my waters without asking - and without TELLING me what she was doing (I asked "what are you doing?" and she didn't say anything, while shoving something into my vagina - and that hurt), they made me lay on my back to push, with me arguing I wanted to give birth upright all the time, I was sent to labour ward about one hour after the birth. Mw at the labour ward was very rude when I called her to ask something...

Thank god after a few hours I was angry enough to get my energy back and discharge myself (and had to be very assertive with the horrible staff for that). So I spent the first night at home.

I so, so don't want to have to deal with this sort of people again... But I have no idea how it can be done.

PS2: Of course I don't want a free birth, but for a second I can sort of understand people who give birth at home alone. It's a moment you need to feel SAFE, and safe was everything I didn't feel during DS's birth.

Book yourself into the peaceful professional birthing spa that is the Edgeware.

My first was a 'textbook' labour just like yours. I suffered PTSD.

Sounds like an horrendous experience - can you ask to go through your notes from last time and discuss you expereinces with the Supervisor of Midwives?

Starshit, my midwives also said I had a "textbook" birth. Wonder what scary things "textbook" might mean in their minds...

WhenDo, what for? In the Royal Free or in the new hospital? In the Royal Free what should I expect from it? I'm sure if staff behaves like that it's because supervisors allow it.

In the new hospital, what would it help me? I don't think the midwives will be very touched, pity me and treat me well when I'm labour because of the crap experience I've had at the Royal Free.

(sorry I'm being flippant, but I didn't understand the point of going through the notes with a midwife. BTW, I have a copy of them at home and I've re-read them a few times)

My midwives went through my notes with me, denied the omissions and treated me as crazy for having had a traumatic birth that they believed to be text book.

In short, it didn't help.

However with my 2nd birth, same trust but different venue, I was treated impeccably. I suspect it wasn't completely unrelated to my raising the 'issues' about my first.

But seriously, look into the Edgeware. People book from 2 hours away. It's fab. I retired post-birth into a double bed with DH. E suit bathroom, available kitchen and patio doors to private garden.

Birth pool in dark room with underwater lighting. Experienced midwives who are used to strange requests.

Hello

So sorry to hear you had such a crap experience and I can understand why it's all flooding back now.

I'm a little confused - did you give birth at the Whit last time? Or the Royal Free?

I gave birth at the Whit two years ago and it was a less than ideal experience - only one terrible midwife, but the whole thing left me feeling out of control (induction that went wrong and ended in a crash section). So the staff were fine, as no one was to blame as such, but I was really nervous about repeating the experience.

But I gave birth there a few weeks ago and found all the midwives impeccable - I started on the birth centre and moved to the labour ward and, without exception, all the midwives were brilliant. I got the vbac I wanted and it was amazing.

I did have a doula this time around though, as my and DH felt we really needed an advocate (for both of us) in case things went pear shaped like last time. I really think she made all the difference, eg she was the one who made sure every single midwife read our birth preferences (first time around it didn't even make it out of the labour bag!) and made sure both of us kept drinking/snacking and kept the room calm etc.

Starshit, that's what I'd expect from the RFH midwives, they would say I was being precious, after all I've had no complications and a "textbook birth."

I'm thinking about raising these issues with the new hospital. I wonder if it will make any difference?

Re the Edgeware, I've heard good things about it (and your description sounds lovely), but I feel uneasy with the idea of a birth centre separated from a hospital (isn't that the case?). After all, the main point of a hospital birth (for me at least) is being next to an operation theatre in case anything happens...

FlipFantasia sorry if I wasn't clear, my horrible experience was at the Royal Free (everyone I know who gave birth there swear they will never go back!). My reasons for having a doula are the same as yours, and I think maybe one who's known at the hospital will make staff behave a little better...

It was the same with my birth plan last time, I didn't even show anyone (mainly because it stated I wanted no epidural and the first thing I did when got to the room was beg for one!).

Now I'm wondering if I'm going for the Whittington (didn't like the midwife in my booking appointment, which is a good start!) or the UCH. I have many friends who gave birth at the UCH, but none had a natural birth so I don't know how good it is for this sort of birth.

By the way, FlipFantasia would you mind telling me who was your doula? (or if you prefer I can PM you)

Agency staff are often used to 'process' the booking in, so you may not have got an actual staff midwife.

The Edgeware is not attached to a hospital but you would be very unlikely to get to an emergency situation there as way before any escalation you are shipped out a mws are trained at a higher level to recognise concerns.

I feel that in hospitals they can get away with shite midwives BECAUSE they have doctors on site to fix any mistakes iyswim. For the same reason they can provide sub-standard care. On balance I felt a homebirth or Edgeware was SAFER.

Not telling you what to do btw, just explaining my own rationale.

Having said all of that, from my research, of the hospitals you mention I woukd choose the Whit by far. Dreary decor but better attitude and they are a bit more forward thinking in their birth unit.

Booking appointment when pregnant with ds was spent with me moaning about rsh maternity and how awful they were when i had dd but to be honest it was better second time around

theevery ah that makes sense! TBH most people I know who've given birth at the Royal Free had bad experiences, though I think they've been trying to fix things. I don't have any direct experience of UCH but I really like the Whit and their birth centre is lovely (the labour ward also has pools and is quite nice). The midwives who do booking in are the community ones - so they do your antenatal care but not labour/delivery. You usually see the same midwife throughout pregnancy (unless she's on holiday or whatever) and she also does the home postnatal visits.

My doula was Mars Lord (she's on MN too as marslady) and she was totally fab - she's viewed as sensible by the staff (lots of the doctors and midwives at the Whit had worked with her/heard of her) which was one of our reasons for choosing her - it was important for me that our doula could advocate on our behalf with staff especially during shift changes. I highly recommend her, as she really helped us have the birth we wanted (and lay to rest the ghosts of our son's crazy birth!).

Mars Lord is a great doula and well known in the London hospitals and birthing centres. If you want to contact her or other London Doulas have a look at the doula uk website: doula.org.uk.
I hope you manage to achieve the type of birth you want. :)

thevery Have you thought about posting your views of this hospital on Patient Opinion www.patientopinion.org.uk/opinions?nacs=RKEQ4

What you went through was awful ..and they ought to know..you might get better treatment if they know you are going to go public if there is a repetition!

Hope you don't need to though

Good luck

Sorry, forgot to link www.patientopinion.org.uk/opinions?nacs=RKEQ4

Another positive experience of the Whit here, if it helps you decide. Had DD there 2 years ago and now booked in with DC2, due in October. Birth experience wasn't ideal as DD was back-to-back and after 2+ hours of pushing I was transferred from the birth centre to a delivery suite and DD was delivered by ventouse. I can't fault the midwives though.

I saw a counceller (sp) after my DS's labour - my midwife suggested it and I thought 'nah I'm fine' but I went anyway.. Had what is known as a 'deconstruction' - basically you go through your birthing notes together and get to discuss things you found difficult or confusing and they explain the reasons/possible reasons for each thing.

For example I also wasn't 'allowed' to labour in the position I wanted to and felt very cross about it (you just feel ignored, don't you?) - it was only by going through my notes together I discovered it was because DS's heartrate kept dropping and they could only monitor it when I was on my back.

I think part of the problem is birth is an everyday event for midwives but a very big deal for the person going through it. Things happen in the heat of the moment and I suppose it depends on the nature of the midwife (and how long a shift they're on I imagine) as to whether they are sensitive and explain things properly.

Just because you had a 'textbook' labour doesn?t mean it wasn't traumatic for you. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and if you feel you didn't get that then of course you'd be worried 2nd time around.

I honestly think it's worth you asking your midwife for the number of someone who can deconstruct your birthing notes. They're held on file indefinitely so there should be no trouble getting hold of them. If you can find out the reasons things happened I think it'll put your mind at rest this time around (which is incredibly important, stress is no good for you or your baby)

I plan on discussing a lot of 'complications' from DS's birth with my midwife closer to my due date. Apparently much of what I experienced was 'normal' but it makes a huge difference to how I feel and where I decide to give birth later in the year.

Best of luck with your midwife. Be firm; you deserve to be taken seriously!

Sorry I couldn't respond your comments before, I didn't have time to sit down and write.

Starshit what do you mean by "agency staff"?

What you say about the midwives at the Edgeware makes a lot of sense. I've spoken to a doula who said the best midwives are the ones who do home births. For the hospital they don't need to be as good, as if there is any problem they can just call another more experienced one, or the doctor.

That was one of the reasons that made me think about a home birth.

So far my experience with the Whit was with this one widwife who ignored most of the things I said (and didn't even look at DS who was in the room all the time blowing kisses to her. Witch)

theonewith (love your nn) I tried to moan but, as I said, midwife was not very interested in whatever I had to say.

Flip I hear the Royal Free has been trying to "improve" things for years now. They must be quite incompetent if they couldn't improve it after so long, isn't it? (or maybe they're not really trying, just putting up a show).

It seems that Mars Lord is the official Whittington doula :) I've read a couple of posts by her around here and she says very good things about the hospital. I would be very confident with a professional who is so well regarded in the hospital like she is.

DoulaKate the doula.org.uk is a bit overwhelming, with all those ladies who all seem very good :) But I'm getting through all of them and getting in contact with a couple of them.

Ushy thanks for the suggestion. The problem is that I really don't want to delve into this - that's the reason why since DS was born I've been thinking of making an official complaint and never got round to it... I'll try to gather some courage, though...

MissPenteuth thanks for the input.

Nicecup thanks for your story. Who do you think I should do this "deconstruction" with? The RFH midwives or the ones of my new hospital? I have a copy of the notes with me.

But the fact that they may have had "reasons" to do this or that doesn't change the fact that they didn't explain it to me or asked for permission! I would have allowed the midwife to break my waters but nothing, nothing justifies her doing it without asking or telling me what was going on.

Being treated like an idiot and an incapable was very hurtful and I guess no amount of "justification" will change that.

Midwives and doctors in this country are used to being patronising and treating people as if they are idiots. When I'm fine and strong I just let they know I'm not an idiot. But during labour it's impossible to fight. Or, as you say, to be "firm." That's why I'm panicking.

(and you can see I'm also getting more angry by the day, can't you? I wonder how enraged I'll be a couple of months from now...)

Sometimes these things are just down to luck on who (which midwife) you get on the day. MOST mws are lovely and you shouldn't be so unlucky as to get horrible ones again. I had it the other way round, my mws during DS1's birth were lovely but at the start od DS's the mw was vile, denying me gas and air and very dismissive, thankfully she finished her shift and a nice one replaced her for the actual delivery.

Sending you positive vibes.

I think there is a specific person assigned to birth deconstruction in each area. I'm in a different part of the country to you so I'm not sure it is the same in London. My only experience of the Whittington and the Royal Free are working in an admin role, I found each hospital very pleasant to work in but having never been a patient (not for maternity anyway) I couldn't comment. I think it's your midwife who would have the contact details so perhaps you could ask when you call.

I totally understand there cannot be an 'excuse' for everything. It sounds appalling that the MW broke your waters without telling/asking you. I can't imagine how degrading that must have felt. But based on my own experience I would say I feel a whole lot better having discussed the notes with someone who understood the process and the abbreviations etc better than me. It helped to fill in the blanks a bit.

I hope you find some peace from your experience and can start to feel positive about your 2nd labour. It's quite daunting in a different way for me this time because I know some of the things that could happen whereas before I was quite naive excited about the whole thing. Hopefully this time round will be completely different for you and leave you feeling positive and empowered

Moti nearly everyone was horrible or at least disrespectful, so either I'm very unlucky, or I bring the worst in people, or I should be very, very wary about NHS midwives in general.

I'm going to at least have a doula this time - I've heard midwives behave better when there is one around.

Nicecup I don't have a midwife, or a GP, which is rubbish. I just get seen by random people, every time someone different. I may ask the midwife for this deconstruction thing after I change hospital.

And I completely understand what you say about feeling "ignorant therefore calm during birth". If I had any idea of how crap everything would be I would have been terrified of going into labour. However, I was blissfully unaware of it all, and my body just did its thing and got the baby out :)

I panic just thinking what those horrible professionals would have done in case something went wrong. I was very, very lucky. (in fact, I had forgotten this feeling, now I remember perfectly how I felt on the weeks following DS's birth. If they managed to screw a textbook birth, I wonder what they would have done if I - touch wood - had had any complication).