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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Can I refuse to try VBAC at Queen Charlottes?

15 replies

osterleymama · 06/04/2012 19:36

I'm eight weeks pregnant and going in for my booking appointment at Queen Charlottes in hammersmith next week. My DS was born 19 months ago and I had a failed induction at 40 weeks (induced due to excess amniotic fluid and huge baby), laboured for two days and finally had a EMCS due to failure to progress. I never got beyond 8cm. I ended up with an infection and was in and out of hospital for weeks, struggled to breast feed and generally felt like I'd been hit by a train for months.

I have NO intention of going through that again and am convinced the reason I took so long to recover was that my uterus was battered prior to my surgery from getting so massive (I measured 56cm at 40 wks) then going through almost 50 hours of contractions and I feel that a planned CS is a safer option for me and my next baby.

I've read Queen Charlottes won't offer a ELCS because of a previous CS and I'm a bit scared now. Can they force me to VBAC? Had anyone insisted on an ELCS and won?

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Ushy · 06/04/2012 19:59

Yes, you can refuse.
Its against NICE guidance.
Bring the ceiling down on them if they try to force you - formal complaint, MP the works.

SardineQueen · 06/04/2012 20:08

Agree with Ushy.

Hopefully with your history they will give you a straight choice with no arguments or even persuasion.

With mine (different london borough) for DD2 I had a "birth choices" meeting with a woman who gave me a debrief on the first birth (which was really helpful) and gave me the stats and left it to me.

I am fairly sure that risk to baby and mother with a 2nd CS vs VBAC are lower for both so that's something you can raise if they give you trouble.

osterleymama · 06/04/2012 20:33

Thank you both, that's reassuring!

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SardineQueen · 06/04/2012 20:37

I am sure it will be fine Smile

If they do give you any trouble the obviously post about it there will be lots of people around to advise you if that happens (I'm sure it won't).

seoladair · 07/04/2012 13:22

Try to have a consultation with Sara Paterson-Brown at Queen Charlotte's. Here's an article co-written by her:

Focus'The safest method of birth is by caesarean'

Share 12 reddit this Nicholas Fisk and Sara Paterson Brown

The Observer, Sunday 2 May 2004 Article history

Obstetricians spend much of their time exploring reasons why women ask for caesarean births. Sometimes we feel like a recording, going over and over the same pros and cons surrounding the delivery of their child.

But now the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (Nice) wants us to dissuade women from such requests. Its reasons are straightforward: a short-term cost saving of £11 million and a political view that maternal choice is fine, as long as it is towards' natural childbirth.

Women, not their doctors, make the choices about family planning, antenatal testing, where to give birth and whether to breastfeed. So why not how to give birth? The Nice edict is that maternal request is not an indication for caesarean delivery. Yet more than half of UK obstetricians regard vaginal delivery as more dangerous for the baby.

Women will scarcely be reassured that the Nice 'expert' committee of 16 was chaired by a GP, contained only two obstetricians and was subject to heavy pressure from Department of Health bureaucrats. Recommendations were by majority amid considerable dissent, and the report was rushed out after a staggering 1,400 critical responses.

The Government's target is the 22 per cent caesarean rate, and in particular the 9,000 operations done solely at the mother's request. Rates have risen due to a combination of the improving risk/benefit ratio compared to vaginal birth, and anthropomorphic pressures. Women reproduce later in life, have an average of only 1.7 children, and both they and their babies are getting bigger, resulting in more problems in childbirth. Vaginal birth damages the pelvic floor of many women, and may lead to serious problems in the baby. This is set against the background of society's aversion to risk, and the relative safety of modern caesareans.

Some requests are ill-founded; most are not. Nice wants us to offer women 'cognitive behavioural therapy', yet research shows this has no effect on a woman's decision.

What most women want is information. As was evident at last Thursday's meeting to launch the report, much of the information provided has been selectively interpreted. Nice misquoted risks for planned caesarean versus attempting vaginal delivery (it used higher risk figures of all caesareans compared to the lower risk figures of successful vaginal delivery). Everyone accepts that the best evidence comes from random studies, where treatments are allocated by the toss of a coin. However, in childbirth such studies are few and far between, so it is misleading to equate lack of evidence with lack of risk.

Apart from inbred bulldogs which all need caesareans, mankind is the only species in which the baby's head almost entirely occupies the mother's pelvis and needs to rotate through 90 degrees to come out. Virtually every muscle, nerve and tissue in the mother's pelvis is stretched around the baby's head.

Little wonder that 10-25 per cent develop problems. The most common is leaking urine when laughing or coughing, but a few women develop incontinence of wind or faeces. These 'women's troubles' were not such a problem in the past but women today are less prepared to tolerate the inconvenience and stigma of incontinence. Already 11 per cent of women undergo a vaginal repair operation to correct bladder weakness or prolapse of the womb.

The risks to the baby of attempting labour are much smaller than those to the mother, but potentially more serious. One in 1,800 babies die during labour. About the same number have fits after birth as a result of oxygen shortage, although only a third to a fifth of these develop long-term problems, such as cerebral palsy. Cerebral palsy has other causes, but planned caesarean reduces the chance of the baby suffering oxygen shortage at birth by more than 80 per cent. The greatest risk is the chance of the baby dying inside the womb while the mother awaits the onset of natural labour. Adding these up, the overall risk of death or damage to the baby of vaginal birth is maybe more than one in 500, yet a survey has shown that the average pregnant woman would want a caesarean to prevent a risk of one in 4,000. Ninety-two per cent of women say they want to be delivered by the method that is safest for their baby, and most obstetricians believe this is by caesarean. The risks to the baby of vaginal delivery are arguably greater than of activities society outlaws as dangerous - such as drink-driving or riding a motor bike without a helmet.

Women need to understand the downside, which includes wound pain and slower recovery. The chance of a blood clot and other rare but serious complications seems increased, although this is higher after an emergency operation in labour. Death from a modern elective caesarean in a fit healthy woman is so unusual that the risk can only be guessed at being in the region of one in 100,000 - less than a tenth of that from a road accident. Caesarean in a first pregnancy is likely to be followed by caesarean in a second - especially if for maternal request. The major drawback of repeated caesareans is the limitation to family size. The small increase in the chance of the placenta implanting over the cervix or getting stuck over the scar in a future pregnancy can result in serious bleeding and even hysterectomy.

This is why a requested caesarean is mainly an issue for older women having their first baby. It is the first labour that is most likely to be prolonged, difficult or end in a forceps or vacuum delivery, all risks for pelvic floor damage. And it makes more sense when there is a greater chance of complications in labour, such as with twins, or where labour needs to be induced with a first baby.

Vaginal delivery can be an immensely satisfying experience, as can an elective caesarean. Both can go wrong. Consumer choice, a central theme in pregnancy care, is already too entrenched in the labour ward for a return to paternalistic directives. The 'too posh to push' jibe belittles a genuine, well-considered choice for many women.

Nicholas Fisk is professor of obstetrics at Imperial College, London. Sara Paterson Brown is a consultant obstetrician at Queen Charlotte's Hospital, London

osterleymama · 08/04/2012 12:02

Thank you so much, that's really really helpful.

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ChoosingCesarean · 08/04/2012 20:51

You should not be forced to have a VBAC, and a previous poster is correct in saying that the latest NICE guideline on Caesareans is clear on this.

Here is a link to all versions of the new NICE guideline update (published November 2011), and what you might find particularly helpful is the 'PATIENT VERSION' (text highlighted in pink), which you can print out and bring into your next antenatal appointment with you.

www.electivecesarean.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=491&Itemid=670

seoladair · 09/04/2012 12:48

Hi ChoosingCesarean
The electivecesarean website helped me so much last year when I was arguing for a c-sec. If you are the founder, then I'd like to say thank you. My elcs was a wonderful experience. My baby was born in perfect condition, the op was painless, and the recovery was a breeze. Thank you again!

OutMeAndDie · 16/04/2012 10:13

I cant access the link above. I have my consultant appt tomorrow and will be going armed with the NICE guidelines. How did you get on osterley?

MsMoo · 16/04/2012 13:33

Hi, they definitely cannot force you into a VBAC. As most people have already said the NICE guidelines will support you in this. This is a link to the guideline www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/13620/57162/57162.pdf

However just challenging them on this is only part of the battle. While they can refer you for a second opinion it will really help you if you can make sure that you demonstrate that you understand the risk/benefits of VBAC versus repeat caesarean and specifically that you are making an informed decision on this.

There is a great book 'Caesarean Birth: A positive approach to preparation and recovery' by Leigh East www.csections.org/?page_id=29 which has all the information (medical research as well as information on rights and making informed decisions) that should help you prepare. While it probably wont arrive in time for your next appointment, you may find you are unlikely to gain final agreement one way or the other before week 34 so you have plenty of time yet. (Also it has lots of information about how to prepare for and recover from caesarean birth).

Good luck

osterleymama · 16/04/2012 20:34

I have my appointment tomorrow afternoon. I'll report back!

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OutMeAndDie · 17/04/2012 12:13

I just had my appointment. He read through my notes and asked about the birth and asked what my thoughts were. I said i would like an elective. He said i think thats for the best and popped it in my notes. Yay. Good luck osterley. He wrote short stature in my notes. I am 4.11. And DS was 8.6 so quite big for a shorty, and back to back, and my labour didnt progress beyond 4cm.

osterleymama · 17/04/2012 15:23

Just finished my appointment and spoke to a very kind midwife who said that while she sympathised with my decision she can't give an answer and I need to speak to the consultant. She went and asked her superiors if I could see a doctor today and came back to tell me they won't discuss the birth plan with me until I am 20 weeks (I'm now only 9). She was so gentle and nice I found it hard to be pushy but did say I don't want to worry for the next 10 weeks and she then said "don't worry, they can't force you to try vaginally". So I don't have an 'official' answer but I do feel hopeful..

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OutMeAndDie · 17/04/2012 15:36

Good luck Osterley. I found it helpful to type up the relevant sections of the NICE guidelines and bullet my delivery. All of which helped me this morning.

loveisagirlnameddaisy · 17/04/2012 16:28

I saw a consultant midwife at 18 weeks and she was very pro-VBAC, but I already knew this. However, it was my consultant appt a fortnight ago where the decision was officially made. I had already decided I wanted an elective but was prepared to try VBAC if I went into labour naturally. Since my first delivery was emergency section because of poor positioning, not a problem with dilation, my consultant felt a VBAC was achievable. I had already decided I wanted an ELCS because I found induction traumatic so he agreed that I would not be induced. In the end, he actually agreed to a section on my due date and if I go into labour before then I will attempt a VBAC. This is a partial compromise but I guess that if I do start naturally before 40 weeks, it's meant to be (havIng gone 12 days overdue last time).

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