can't believe I'm asking this..

[Jasper]

Giving birth as a SEXUAL experience? Surely there must be some mistake! I have just been to a website www.freeborn.com ( or was it freebirth?) where many of the women ( who are into giving birth with NO medical/ midwifery help at all- YIKES!) go on about how sexual the last moments of childbirth were for them. Honest, I am not making this up.Many claimed to orgasm as the baby emerged. Now I can agree that the birth of my babies was wonderful, empowering, awesome etc. but it was at the same time extremely painful! Sexual? Orgasmic? Surely not! This website claims women may experience what is really sexual pleasure as pain during labour because they are tense!! It sounds barking mad to me.
What do you all think? Am I being incredibly narrow minded?

message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Jasper, although I was screaming and shouting "Oh my God" as each of my four was born, it certainly wasn't ecstasy I was experiencing!
Three of the births were natural, one underwater, and I was very 'relaxed' about what was going on, ie well-prepared and working with my body, but 'sexual', not a bit.
I too have heard such claims before (I think Sheila Kitzinger talks about this in one of her books too) and I just can't relate to it.

Jasper, I saw this too when I was expecting our ds and looking for every speck of info on giving birth. I couldn't believe my eyes and have to say I am even more sceptical now having actually given birth. If I remember correctly one woman dexcribed how she was so aroused she asked her midwife to manually relieve her, so to speak!!!!! Hmmmm, I have to say I'm with Robinw on this and wonder if it is really genuine.

I know that they say there is a thin line between pleasure and pain, but this is ridiculous. It honestly makes me feel nauseous (so perhaps quite good for the diet!). When I gave birth to my 3, I can honestly say that it was the most agonising thing(s) that I have ever done - not in the remotest bit sexual. As for wanting sex straight afterwards, with the amount of stitches I had, well it brings tears to my eyes even thinking about it! I'm off for my sick bucket......

During my ante-natal yoga classes we did talk about this. One of the mums said that she was keen to explore this further, this was her 4th pregnancy. She had had 2 very easy labours and said that if the 4th one was like that she was keen to give it a go (that's masturbating.... hope no children on this thread)... I haven't heard from her as my baby was born before.
The teacher was also talking about this because the hormones you release when you have sex are similar to the one they give you (I hope I am not explaining this completely the wrong way around - I am NO expert) when you are induced. The midwife appearing on the birth programme with Zoe Ball in July (C4) said something about that as well.
Going through labour I briefly thought about that conversation... but the pain quickly remonded me that I needed to focus on pushing !

Just thinking of some hapless father-to-be saying to his wife suffering an agonising contraction 'go on - you know you're enjoying it really!'

Can't say I felt anything sexual on any level when I was giving birth. Felt plenty that wasn't sexual, though!

I have never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life! Equating childbirth with having sex is sick in itself - is nothing sacred? All I can say is that they must have very poor and painful sex lives it that's how they get their kicks.

If I were a social worker I'd be round there like a shot.

Gosh that's made me quite mad that has!

While it may repulse some and unless it is illegal, I wish mumsnet members would just not be so judgemental. To each his own !
I also can't see myself having a sexual experience while giving birth that doesn't mean that people talking about it (on other sites) are sick...
I am very surprised at the intolerance - maybe I am missunderstanding your posts.

On a serious note, there was a woman who was accused of child abuse when she rang a breast feeding "help" line. They didn't help her when she said she was having sexual sensations in her breast when breast feeding. They reported her!

Perhaps the point is that some women experience the ecstacy that comes with the final push and the baby emerging, and the euphoria that can follow as such a hieghtened physical and emotional event that an orgasm is the only term that seems to relate to the experience and therefore childbirth appears to be sexualised. Maybe we simply don't have the terminology to express this experience and in a culture where so much is sexualised this was almost inevitable. Childbirth is afterall the most primal experience imaginable. Can I ask, is it the fact of the babys presence that sickens people most or the fact that pain and pleasure cannot be viewed as interelated? Or a combination of the two. Just curious.

Thanks for all your comments.
The actual weblink is www.freebirth.com . It is not a spoof, it is on the About.com network. It is a site dedicated to what they call "unasisted childbirth", a concept I am sure many homebirthers would balk at! The idea is you have NO midwife , doula, doctor, or anyone ( except whoever in your family/friends you wish) present. The belief is women instinctively know how to give birth and are best left with NO intervention. Scroll down the page and you will find links titled "The benefits of having sex in labour" and "Orgasmic Childbirth". The articles shocked me simply because I found it hard, nay, impossible to relate to. The very idea of having sex during labour makes me feel quite ill! I would stop short of describing those having had these experiences as "sick" but they are not from the same planet as me when it comes to labour! And I do think it is irresponsible to PROMOTE what is obviously an extremely rare birth experience as if it could be attained by any woman who just relaxed a bit, faced her fears went with the flow, got rid of the midwife and got down to it with her husband on the kitchen floor....Sorry, hope that was not too graphic. I mean, come off it! Also, surely your average man would be appalled at this idea and would think their wife had gone temporarily insane if she suggested sex during labour?

Winnie, I forgot to address your points. If you read the womens accounts, they are claiming to have actually orgasmed, they are not saying birth was so intense it was almost an orgasmic experience or anything flowery like that. They were claiming bona fide sexual orgasms ( really good ones, apparently...)
I would not necessarily use the word "sickened" more completely astonished and frankly disbelieving and worried about these womens' sanity! And that of their husbands. As I have said, in my experience there was a good deal of joy and wonderment in (early) labour , and it is difficult to find words to describe it but it was also incredibly painful and if this has not been the case for a particular woman she should count herself lucky and not crow about it because for the vast majority of women the pain is immesurable, hand in hand with the joy.

Jasper, haven't gone to the site yet but I agree that the concept of having sex in childbirth is beyond many peoples comprehension and is different from my point about terminology...why women shouldn't 'crow' about it though, I don't quite get. It doesn't seem to be something that the majority want to experience so should it simply be brushed under the carpet to protect our sensibilities? If one chooses to go to this site, as a parent looking for info on parenting, one can choose not to click on the link to 'orgasmic childbirth'.

Well said, Jasper! From what I have gathered from reading most people's postings, I don't feel that anyone is being judgemental or condemning of these women, so I think perhaps some have been misunderstood. It is just quite difficult for many of us to understand where they are coming from, as our own birth experiences, although wonderful, were extremely painful, and lust was the last thing on our minds! Obviously, it is an individual's right to feel and act as they wish (within reason, of course) and we respect these women, even if we don't entirely understand them. As for saying they are 'sick', and I take it Pupuce, you took that as meaning 'sick in the head', (and I can only speak for myself here) I actually meant that knowing how I felt during and immediately after childbirth, the idea of sex at that time makes me feel rather queasy. This is just my opinion, and I am as entitled to think it as those women are entitled to have their rather unusual ideas about childbirth.

Chanelno5, this thread is obviously helping with your diet!!!!

On a serious note though I have just visited the site and quickly skim read the 'orgasmic childbirth' section and from what I read only one person actually mentions having sex in childbirth (and it isn't clear at what point) and generally the accounts seem to be along the lines of 'the pleasure was orgasmic' - which isn't an experience many women have, but is obviously an experience some women have.

As for the sex in childbirth, don't lots of couples make love in an attempt to start off a labour? Playing devils advocate here... if masturbation helps relieve the pain in labour, isn't that preferable to drugs? In ones own home, without an audience...

Anyway, must get off this site and get some work done!!!!

Sorry, but I still find it all rather repulsive. I guess it must be my Catholic upbringing!
Sex during childbirth sounds rather dangerous, is this before or after the waters have broken?

Maybe I will have to go to the link to read what this women has said in context, but I agree that if the term she used was merely 'orgasmic' then it could apply to the relief & happiness felt when the baby was born. If however, she meant it in a sexual context then I do feel rather queasy. Sex = lust and to be thinking lusty thoughts whilst giving birth to your child is just not normal. And please don't somebody say lust has nothing to do with it, we all know how we get turned on in sex, whether we are making love or not.

I've also heard about women getting sexual feelings whilst breastfeeding. Personally I found it quite painful and not at all pleasurable. But it really does worry me when giving birth and breastfeeding become sexual, because obviously there is a child involved and whilst I'm not saying it could evolve into something nasty, it would nevertheless be at the back of my mind.

Ok, have just looked at the site, here are some of the topics - having oral sex whilst giving birth, having partners stimulate you whilst in labour in front of midwife et all, both partners masturbating, and men breastfeeding.

I'm glad I've already had my dinner. Does anyone actually agree with any of this?

Eh, men breastfeeding? Am I missing something? (or rather, arent they!).

If this interests you at all please check out the website.I assure you many of the women claim to have an actual orgasm during established/late labour.Here is just a snippet, written by a husband.

"This birth was not only painless, but very pleasurable. We had never read about this aspect, and it took us by surprise. As the baby crowned, I knew from Jean's look and sounds that she was having an explosive orgasm, which rolled on and on. What a long way from the pain and agony of conventional myth! ...... It may even be that many women have orgasms during birth, but interpret them as pain because the sensations are more intense than anything previously experienced and because women are conditioned to expect pain.'"

So ladies, here's a man telling us that we just THINK labour is painful because we have been conditioned to think so. It is actually orgasmic if only we would just stop being afraid and relax! And get rid of the midwife.
Now wait a minute, since when was the pain of childbirth a "myth", conventional or otherwise? And sorry to state the obvious, but how would a man know? I think I can trully say I approached labour with no fear whatsoever. I was totally calm and was relaxed and excited about taking it minute by minute. But the pain I felt was far from mythical. And the joy I felt ( and there was a lot of it) was far from sexual.

At risk of starting a small war (or diplomatic incident anyway)... It seems this is all part of a specific drug free birth agenda? Just another thing to make you feel guilty for not having the "perfect" idealised birth experience?

I too, like Jasper, approached the birth of my first child quite relaxed and convinced that I might beable to cope without (too much) pain relief. I naively thought that I would be capable of 'breathing through' the contractions (as promoted in my antenatal classes - don't remember them mentioning other pain relief much though!)

Infact, I was quite looking forward to going into labour. So when I actually did, and found it quite painful from early on, I was really shocked and thought something was going wrong.

Before I had kids, I always thought that childbirth couldn't be as bad as everyone said or nobody would have more than one child - wrong!! I think many women (before they have kids) think this, so that's hardly being misled by the 'myth' of painful childbirth, or being conditioned to expect pain, is it? (The very opposite infact!)

That extract you quoted was very interesting, Jasper. I wonder if Jean agrees with what her husband says .Perhaps she just seemed 'happy' because she thought the baby would be out soon and it would all be over!

I have had a quick look at the Freebirth site and one of the things that really struck me was how very fortunate these women were to have a problem-free labour and birth and healthy baby at the end of it. Would they be quite so happy to go on about the wonders of an unassisted birth if something had gone terribly wrong?

During the birth of my third child, I haemorrhaged badly, and the baby got distressed and needed to resuscitated when he was born. I dread to think what could have happened if I had decided to have him at home, by myself in the bath, not that the thought ever crossed my mind, of course.

Surely, one of the best things about living in this day and age, is the excellent survival rate of mother and child during chilbirth, due to the great advances in medicine in recent years. So really, why some women want to take it into their own hands and shun the professionals, is beyond me. They are not only risking their own lives, but those of their innocent babies! This, of course, is just my opinion on the subject.

Bossykate, my sentiments exactly! I admire women who give birth by whatever method!Isn't it funny the way you feel when you hear so and so has just had their baby? No matter who it is you feel such a sense of joy, relief, and admiration on their behalf.
For those who can breathe it out with no pain relief, I say well done. I wasn't made that way!
Chanelno5 your experience sounds exactly like mine.I am so grateful for the hospital staff who assisted at the birth of both my babies. They were SO caring and nurturing ( I know that is a soppy wod but it really does apply!). I never once felt that a fundamentally natural process was being medically managed in a way which was detrimental to me or my baby, despite requiring a lot of intervention first time around.
I agree it must be wonderful for the women on the freebirth site to have a problem free birth and a healthy baby in the comfort of their own homes alone apart from their husbands and am very glad it worked well and had a happy ending for them.Come to think of it my home is not all that comfortable!
My grandmother died giving birth at home to her fourth child.

Sorry to sound cynical, but I wonder if the women's stories aren't just a tiny bit exaggerated, or in fact, made up? There appear to be a hell of a lot of women out there who have had a sexual experience during childbirth, and reading through them reminds me of a trashy sex novel. Nobody that I know has ever had anything close to a sexual experience during birth - has anyone else heard of anyone that has? Plus they all seem to come from America, which sort of coins the phrase "It could only happen in America".

As for men breastfeeding, well that's just one fiction too far. I know we all wonder why they have nipples at all, but there's no way a man could breastfeed - or is there? Trust someone now to come on and prove me wrong!

I'm sorry if I appear to be judgmental here but I have just had a quick look at the website in question and all I can say is what a load of crap!!! I found particularly amusing the quote from Hygeia Halfmoon who said she curled up with a glass of organic grape juice and masturbated while in labour.Puuurlease!!!!!
Does this not all sound just bizzarely unreal?
Maybe this site is really a site for people with unusual sexual fetishes rather than a genuine site about childbirth?
I know when I was in labour I couldn't bear to be touched.All the massage we'd learnt at antenatal classes went out of the window.And being examined by the midwife was agonising.
I really think this website is about a whole other thing all together.