Surely everyone who gives birth has done 'well'?

[kickingking]

Not sure of the right place to post this - it's partly inspired by the OBEM threads.

On those threads (and in real life) there is a lot of 'she did well, what with a 9lber' and 'she did well on only gas and air' and (less frequently) 'she did well because her labour lasted so long, poor thing'.

My line of thinking days that you can't say that anyone had done 'well' OR that everyone who has a baby has done well, because it is impossible to quantify other people's pain, fear and joy. Saying that someone has 'done well' implies you are comparing it to other births where the mothers haven't done so well. Which I think is unfair.

I will add as a disclaimer here (in case anyone searches me or recognises me from another thread) that I had elcs and have never experienced labour myself, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thoughts?

I suppose it's why some women feel a sense of failure when it doesn't go to plan.

I think everyone deserves a well done - its just a human response, like saying hello or how are you

Some women are braver than others. Some are stoical, some are not. Labour and delivery is not linked to this though and the way a woman copes in labour often isn't the way she copes with other things. I found it interesting on OBEM last night that the midwife thought she knew everything. And when in labour she knew as much as the next woman, asked questions that her professional head knew the answer to. Unless you can say that all labours and deliveries are the same length, the baby in the same position etc, you can't say that the way a woman labours and delivers is anything to do with who she is.

I have a friend who is an utter wimp. She can't cope with a cold and fully admits she can't manage anything like cold weather or driving a car. She cries at the drop of a hat and is extremely negative (though utterly, utterly lovely). She gives birth with beautiful ease and without so much as a wimper. Her babies have all been well positioned, her pelvis adequate and the labours of average lengths. I have other friends who've had more than one child and complete opposite experiences in each of them. Nothing to do with who they are or their bravery and everything to do with the baby inside them and the events on the day. I like to think that I'm pretty damn hardy. You will never see me cry. I have walked round with a broken foot not realising. I do not take painkillers. I am resilient. During labour and delivery I begged to die. Because I had a severely malpositioned baby and a wonky pelvis I didn't know about. I burst blood vessels and tore a muscle with the efforts I went to (for 8 hours) to push that baby out. I was in so much pain I couldn't feel where my limbs were, just white hot pain. I had an emcs in the end. But my brother will tell you that I took the easy route and made a fuss and all manner of things. Because sil had straightforward vaginal deliveries and made not a sound. His value judgements hurt me in a way I can't express.

I think the thing to remember is that the experience and pain levels involved are not the same for everyone.

A friend of mine had no pain relief with her labours, had quick labours and said it was no worse than having a big poo.

I see other women in agony, having slow, back to back, augmented labours, where quite understandably they want and get an epidural.

I think that women in both these groups have done equally well.

I do think its a shame that childbirth is seen as some sort of competition, who did the best, who had the most problems, who had the least pain relief, who had the most stitches.

Yes I think my issue is that she only seems to say it to those that have done things 'naturally'. I probably find it more patronising than the women do, tbh! I know she isn't at all judgemental about pain relief or bottle feeding, so I just wonder why she makes these comments.

I was told 'well done' by several people, presumably on just having a baby rather than for my efforts in his birth (which obviously required no effort on my part) and also 'well done' from the specialist midwife who had supported and advised me through a high risk pregnancy (I honestly think nobody except a diabetic woman can appreciate the hard work and stress that go into a healthy diabetic pregnancy) and the decision between a very managed early induction or an elcs (a decision I found very hard at the time.) She also spend time telling me what a 'beautiful, calm birth' my elcs was - I appreciated her words very, very much.

I was also told that I had 'the easy option' and that I was 'too posh to push' etc. Which is particularly galling from people who don't know your medical history or how limited my options actually were. Or the 38 weeks of 24/7 effort and diligence that went into creating a healthy baby.

The point of my original post was not about me, but I agree entirely that we can't walk in other people's shoes.

"Some women are braver than others. Some are stoical, some are not. Labour and delivery is not linked to this though and the way a woman copes in labour often isn't the way she copes with other things."

And your evidence for this is?......

BTW - the whole issue of being competitive - it's not about comparing ourselves to OTHER people. I had no interest in how other people behaved. But I was interested how I would rise to the challenge of labour.

Some women cope very well with VERY difficult labours. It's simply not the case that the only women who can maintain a positive or stoical attitude are those who have 'easy' labours (I use the word advisedly....).

That's why I love the book 'Spiritual Midwifery' - because the stories in there to present labour as a spiritual, physical and emotional challenge that women must prepare themselves for. And I think that's why lots of other people love this book - because it's the only book that really explores who women respond emotionally to what happens to them in birth. It's really interesting.

So define stoic and brave in labour/delivery then? Not making noise? Not having drugs? Smiling throughout? Having a big baby? Having a tough time and doing it all again 2 years later? Saying only positive things? And a woman that isn't brave? Is she noisy? Does she have a small baby? Does she need intervention and fear it? Does she panic?

And where is your evidence to say that a woman's ability to be positive and stoic and brave doesn't come from the fact that she has less pain and a better positioned baby than the woman in the next room who is whimpering and asking for drugs? You couldn't know that if you swapped the level of pain and type of delivery you wouldn't also swap the attitude. You cannot logically make the statement that it's about your attitude alone. I don't disagree it can help but I don't think you can afford to be so reductive.

I found in labour that my stubborn, stoic nature and belief that I 'should' do things a certain way meant that I refused all intervention until dd was in serious distress. She was (thankfully v temporarily) damaged by her delivery in the end. I wasn't stoic, I was stupid. I should have listened to my baby and my body. In my case I would have been brave to let go of my silly prejudices surrounding intervention and accepted help a lot, lot sooner.

Did you see the birth last week with all the intervention?
The baby who was stuck.
The epidural and the hundreds of HCP in the room?

Everyone said how brilliant she had been and said she had 'done well' too.

When we watch another woman give birth it bring it home to us what a difficult and amazing thing it is. So we express our admiration.

I doubt for one second that anyone thinks that one woman has done better than another.

Oh god yes, this annoys the hell out of me.

DD1 - back to back, lasted days (yes, latent labour does count when it's that blooming painful) million interventions, forceps. No 'well done' from anyone, lots of 'poor you'.

DD2 - probably back to back, shorter labour, pool homebirth, no pain relief at all. Get told all the time (when it comes up for some reason) - 'oh, well done you, nothing at all, gosh, you must be tough...'

I didn't do anything 'better' with DD2. Admittedly I had done more research and knew what my body needed (it reacts very badly to lights, clocks and hospitals when in labour). But I didn't do 'well' with DD2 and, well, what does that imply? 'Not well' with DD1. I hate the implied judgement.

I agree with what MrsDeVere says about it being a way to express admiration, but that admiration does often seem to be reserved for just certain ways of giving birth, at least in my (admittedly limited) personal experience.

I tend to say well done to all new mothers I know. I'm not congratulating them on giving birth (or how they did it) as such, just it's nice in those first few hormonal battered days to have someone telling you something nice about you and not just how lovely your baby is.

I've had two c-sections; one emergency and the other elective. Both times midwives, consultants, nurses, my family and friends all said 'well done' - for all those people it was just a general 'well done' for doing all that pregnancy and c-section bit. Similarly, I always think 'well done' when I hear about someone I know who's had a baby, regardless of the method of delivery and whether they used pain relief or not.

shineon - some people cope better with extreme pain and uncertainty than other people.

What is so hard to accept about this?

We are all different.

I agree, every woman has done well giving birth regardless of how the baby comes out.

But how do you define coping better? I had a hideous labour with dd and spent half of it crying, whimpering and telling dh I couldn't do it any more. But when it came to the crunch, and painful proceedures that scared the living daylights out of me were suggested to save dd's life I said yes without a second thought. My first thought while I was lying practically bleeding out on the surgery floor was 'how is she'.

So how did I cope? Was I brave and stoical because of the decisions I made or a wuss because of the tears and complaints en route?

No-one bar DH and the hcps said well done to me, I guess getting the baby yanked outbwith a pair of big metal pliers isn't an achievement to most.

Shineon is right, being brave and stoical by some people's definition is just stubborn to others, and can lead you down paths you shouldn't tread.

BTW - the whole issue of being competitive - it's not about comparing ourselves to OTHER people. I had no interest in how other people behaved. But I was interested how I would rise to the challenge of labour.

This is preoccupying me a lot at getting on for 36 weeks in my first pregnancy. I've never in my life had to deal with anything like this, and I have absolutely no idea how I will cope. I think it's knowing that it's something that the majority of women all face, some of them many times - but that I never thought I would, given that having a child was a decision we made when I was right at the end of my 30s. My friends with children had them a long time ago. Suddenly I feel joined to other women in a physical way I didn't before, and although I've read everything I can get my hands on, and am doing hypnobirthing/NCT classes, I feel stupidly unprepared.

I think that anyone who has a baby has 'done well' - let's face it it's the next so many years that are the hardest!

I've had many negative comments on my births (no well dones!) mainly because they were very quick.

DS- 2 1/2 hours - induction, gas and air, back to back, distressed baby, ventouse, big haemmorrage, went into shock, rather ill and took weeks to recover, didn't bond particularly well with baby. DS has special needs but I don't know if this is related to birth.

DD - 2 hours, gas and air, birth went according to plan, home within two hours. Felt elated and equally as proud of myself as the first time.

However, all anyone ever concentrates on is "well you had it easy with your short labours!" Very annoying and almost as if I didn't really need to try or that my births are not really worth a mention. It took me a long time to get over my first birth and I resent the implication that it was easy because of the time factor (although I do recognise that long labours must be really hard).

I always write "Well done mum" in cards for new babies, it doesn't matter to me how the baby was born or how long the labour was. She and her body have simply done a wondrous thing in making, growing and bringing another human being into the world.

I had a very difficult time and ending up with lots of intervention. I feel I suffered more than others but not that doesn't make me any more deserving of praise. Just bad luck.

Thank you nappymaestro!

I do get annoyed when people, normally 'well-meaning friends', have their little jokes about how easy I had it.

I'm someone who has the habit of putting myself down. I've achieved a lot career-wise but less than people who constantly big themselves up, even though my qualifications are better. I constantly feel the need to be self-deprecating. This has the result that people who I meet are surprised at the job I do - how could little ole me do such a demanding job?

Anyway I have to try so, so hard not to be self-depracating about my ELCS - I know it was the hardest thing I've ever been through and I don't want to be self-deprecating any more. I don't want people to think 'oh yeah Muslin had a really easy time' because I effing well didn't.

Random rant, but it's well documented how women put themselves and their achievements down. Think about it - if men gave birth, how much would they brag about it? How much recognition would society give their achievement?