I just want to point out that birthing upright is NOT routine practice.

[StarlightDicKenzie]

Neither are waterbirths, active birth or epidurals because you need them - whatever you get told when you visit the MLU/hospital/community midwife!

When I hit transition, there was no way on earth I wasn't getting up from the bed. I would have liked to have seen them stop me.

Something unholy took over, I just 'had' to give birth standing up

That sounds very stressful and upsetting buonasera , I'm really sorry to hear about the poor care you've had. I hope it goes well for you and your babies. If you remain concerned, remember you can ask to make an appointment with the Supervisor of Midwives to explain your concerns and get a proper agreed care plan. You can push for an elective c-section if that is what you feel will make the difference to the three of you. I think NICE have changed their guidelines and this choice should be better supported now. Given your concerns personally I'd avoid induction if at all possible.

I know nothing about birth and I assumed that you could move around, squat etc in childbirth

how the fuck else do you do it - not that stirrup thing I used to have smears in ?

I guess that was because you weren't PINNED to the bed by several peple asdevil despite asking repeatively to be able to get up.

Agreed - it varies a lot by who you have with you. I certainly was told a lot of things were standard, but never happened in any of my 4 "normal" births.

I always found it odd that my very untrained DH was able to unwrap the cord from around DD1's neck (born before arrival) while just her head was out, but all the other ones required the cords cut right away and them taken away (personally, in only one of those do I think it was needed, the other two I think the midwives just viewed cutting right away as standard even with trust policy being delayed cord clamping).

Starlight I was pinned down during my third birth -- though I was kneeling on the floor - I was desperate to get onto the bed but for reasons I still don't know as it was never explained, they held my shoulders and legs down and yelled at me that I needed to stay down. It was still a while before she was born so it wasn't like she was hanging there and I was moving.

Another bugbear of mine... why do HCPs refer to waiting to cut the cord as "delayed cord clamping"? Surely what is in many places standard practice is in fact "premature cord clamping", given that the physiological norm is for the baby to get all of its blood out of its cord as the thing gradually and naturally stops pulsating. Premature cord clamping increases the risk of anaemia in the second half of a baby's first year and significantly reduces their blood volume at birth.

It is horrendus to hear of women being abused during labour, how do people do it.

I agree Kangarobber (your mn name is great ). I hope eventually the attitude will lean more towards that direction.

OTTMummA I try to be kind and think those who do it during labour are doing what they think is needed/best to get things done during what can be a dangerous time. It's the HCPs who abuse women very soon after the births, where there is no pressing need for anything to be done but are still abusive, that really do my head in.

it might just cause enough outrage for women demand that the government do something about it, maybe?

I wish that women would. But the sad truth I think women are far more accepting of the status quo than they should be, and think that they still is a overwhelming feeling that they should merely be satisfied with a healthy baby, regardless of their experiences which may have a massive long term effect on them both physically and mentally.

I also think that there is a certain amount of apathy and feeling that they are powerless to do - in part to do with the fact that they are women and under-represented politically - a bit of a vicious circle and one that I in part think is self forfilling. (something thats pretty strange in a way as middle-class women in their thirties are one of the biggest groups of swing voters so actually have far more power than perhaps they realise - why do you think Cameron has been shitting his pants at reports that he is being perceived so badly by women due to a serious of gaffs and various policies).

Instead whats happening is middle-class women, even if they can't really affording it are voting with their feet by other means by hiring a doula or going private or getting other such support for their birth experience as they don't trust the NHS. There was a great article published last year in the Independant last year on the subject.

The problem is this makes the issue worse in many ways, not better. Those with more of a voice get what they want, but those who don't get a service that isn't fit for purpose at times. Whats already happening is a two tier birth experience is slowly starting to emerge due to a commercial demand.

And even where there are opportunities to try and change things, women aren't getting involved as much as they should be. The current e-petition started by the royal college of midwives to recruit (and more importantly fund) 5000 more midwives as promised by both this government and the last one has been online for some months. Its currently at 29,700 signatures. It needs 100,000 by August. At the current rate of people signing, it won't make the cut off and won't be discussed in parliament. Regardless of how effective e-petitions ultimately are, a debate would be better than nothing. It desperately needs a push and to get others to push the cause. HINT TO MUMSNET HQ

The RCM petition is HERE

I wish women would do something about it too. I've lost count of the women I've spent whole shifts apologising to women for their fragmented care and lack of requested epidural. In all those cases i have encouraged women to complain about their 'care', but (to my knowledge) they never have. I think sometimes they see how hard pushed their midwife is and they think that mw might get into trouble, even though they know they have done their best in the circumstances? I don't know?

Bad, I didn't complain about my birth because the midwife was really really lovely, but just very inexperienced -, nor my fundal pressure by a SHO because my cousin is a midwife and said that the politics in the NHS would mean that the midwife got blamed first for being inexperienced and then for the fundal pressure as doctors close ranks.

Thats interesting Starlight.
Mmm, now I'm starting to think that all those 'bitch mw's' I hear about are going for a different tactic? 'Be horrible, it'll get more complaints and things will change'?

Can i ask if you all gave birth in big cities and did you have a choice where you gave birth? I have read some of the horror birthing stories in newspapers and find it saddening that probably due to a large dose of underfunding these sad cases were allowed to happen in this day and age.

Where I live there is the choice of the maternity ward/mlu in the main hospital in the closest city and there are a couple of smaller maternity wards/mlu in a couple of towns with much smaller hospitals. I know the main hospital is usually brimming to full capacity as I was in and out of there during pregnancy and saw first hand how busy they were, which is why I chose not to give birth there. Although if you are high risk you have to go to the main hospital. Luckily, for both my pregnancies, I was the only one in the maternity ward.

Well I still have a 'complaint' hanging in the air. Not least because I had a 'reflection thingy' with the Supervisor of Midwives who insisted that fundal pressure couldn't have happened because it wasn't recognised obstetric practice and that she would ask the mw about it but is unlikely she would remember.

It took me a long time to identify what had happened because books don't tell you, the NCT certainly doesn't tell you.

My cousin midwife has assured me that if you see something like that as a midwife you would remember for life, so I feel I have been lied to.

Also, the midwife on birth no.2 suspiciously knew a lot about my previous birth. And the Community midwife for no.3 (different PCT) said something strange when I mentioned the forthcoming tribunal for ds being just before my due date. She said 'oh is that with x hospital?' as if she was expecting it to be.

Very strange.

erm I had 1DC upright and was encouraged to have the other 2 that way, but I chose not to. All 3 births active, and could have had waterbirth, was offered for DC1&2 (no time for 3!).

Not saying there are no problems out there (postnatal care was crap) but have not heard many birth horror stories here.

Starlight, when did the SHO give you fundal pressure? During 2nd stage? Shoulder dystocia or 3rd stage (hope you don't mind me asking?) The MW at your 2nd birth probably had your previous notes to hand, maybe the 3rd mw had heard lots of complaints about the previous hospital?

The SHO was called because I couldn't push the head out (not surprising, I waas on my back with no urge begging to be upright). SHO turned up, told them all to 'get her on the bed' and then winded me with both hands on my stomach. I couldn't breathe. The head came out. DH witnessed it all and was horrified.

Notes mention nothing simply SHO arrived. Head born.

I'd had pethedine 7 hours earlier. Supervisor told me that it is usual practise with 3rd stage and the drugs had confused me.

The drugs didn't confuse me. In fact they didn't even drug me. I was clear headed throughout the whole thing and was doing clever calculations using the clock to work out when the pethedine would start working which never did, - but even so it had been a good 7 hours by the time I BEGAN pushing.

i also had fundal pressure, in fact I might have found out that was what it was when i read your description of it, starlight, certainly not read about it anywhere before
mine was at delivery stage when I had a bleed and they were worried about scar rupture
not something to forget in a hurry,nor the being pinned down on the bed, or indeed the challenge to the pelvic floor area
was your ds/dd alright? ds looked v v mis-shapen and had appalling colic for the first few months. i found it really hard to bond with him at first, think i was in shock!

Sorry it happened to you merci. I think the worst thing was watching a programme about different jobs and it showed a midwife visiting a developing country where the native midwives delivered a still born baby using fundal pressure. It was horrific to recognise myself as that woman, and the brutality of it, - but my ds was not stillborn thankfully.

He was diagnosied with moderate-severe autism though.

Oh, Starlight (and merci)

I'm sorry for your dreadful experience.
Telling you you must be mistaken must be a double blow. And fundal pressure is not usual practice in the 3rd stage.

I am going to Newcastle Rvi birthing centre
Who apparently have 5 pools. It's a mlu within the hospital.

I have
My fingers crossed

I had dc1 in a London NHS hospital. I was encouraged to use a pool, which I stayed in until I started trying to go to sleep from exhaustion. Then they hauled me out and I finished off in an upright kneeling position holding onto the bars of the bed, a position the midwives (I had two present the whole time) suggested and helped get me into. I thought they and the hospital were bloody marvellous.