PDA, autism , adhd or normal behaviour

[Goodrich8]

I am hoping someone can help me who has maybe had a child show similar behaviours. My nearly 4 year old son is usually happy, plays and speaks well, attends nursery and I have no development worries. He does however regularly do things that cause a serious meltdown for example he will ask for a drink he will be given the drink he will then say I don’t want the drink so I’ll put it down he will then ask for it again this goes on for ages with crying in between he will then cry and insist I stand exactly where I stood the first time he was offered the drink but this can last 30 minutes. We have recently been on holiday my dad was stood in the pool ready to play my son said I want to go in the pool with grandad so I said great jump in grandads waiting ready, he then said I don’t want to go in the pool again this then goes on and on and escalates it can last Upto an hour. He doesn’t just do this when he’s bored or when I’m asking him to get dressed this can be at times when he has our full attention. He asked to sit in a seat my mom was sat in so she moved again he said he then doesn’t want to sit there he wants to sit somewhere else so again we all moved and again this escalated. He is very sensitive, he eats well, sleeps okay, he is occasionally funny about labels in clothes but not often, school have no concerns and he can go days without a meltdown, he also seems to only really behave like this with me , slightly with his dad.
Today we went to a friends for lunch he cried as someone else went to the toilet first he then asked the other person to hold the door then he refused to go to the toilet so they left the door he then cried they held the door again as he asked, he refused again this again last 30 minutes I understand the causes are small but the meltdowns last for so long, we try distraction and this works but then it’s like he remembers and goes back to demanding someone to hold the door etc. he does seem to flap a bit and pull at his clothes when he’s having these meltdowns but doesn’t any other time. He also does this when we are home on our own so I don’t think it’s the social aspect of the situation -
if anyone has any advice on how we are best trying to deal with this behaviour I would really appreciate it. Would he be able to control autism / PDA for a couple of weeks or would it be more constant? I really don’t know how best to deal with it and it’s now getting really draining, embarassing in public and upsetting for us all :(

I think it more sounds like some form of ocd rather then autism but I'm in no way qualified to say what im saying

I will try have a read up on that these issues sound so small and I know all children test boundaries but this just gets so out of hand and the smallest trigger can cause an hour of meltdowns thank you for your reply

I will try have a read up on that these issues sound so small and I know all children test boundaries but this just gets so out of hand and the smallest trigger can cause an hour of meltdowns thank you for your reply

I hope you get answers. I definitely don't think its behavioural there is definitely more to it. And the fact he mainly does it with you just means your his safe space to let everything out he's been holding in.

My DS has just turned 4 and went through a very intense tantrum phase a few months ago where it was similar meltdowns over seemingly tiny things. It was a phase though and he can still lose it for a good while if he’s tired or overstimulated but it’s quite rare now.

He has a mild speech delay but otherwise, speaks, eats and plays with other kids really well. It’s at the back of my mind there may be some additional needs but preschool recently said he wouldn’t fit a criteria at the moment for an assessment but to keep an eye on his development.

So I think with your DS it could be a phase but it also could be something more. I would speak frankly to his nursery about your concerns and if they have noticed anything similar. It might push them to look a bit closer at how he’s getting on because it would be good to access extra support (if he needs it) before starting school anyway.

Thank you for your reply, I feel a bit stuck with how I’m even meant to deal with it like should we just give him one chance to sit somewhere, walk a certain way, have this have that , nothing we have tried so far seems to help but it’s so frustrating, upsetting and draining to be honest :( I know all children ask for things then say no but this is really intense he seems to know right from wrong , I’ve googled autism etc and he only has one or two of the listed signs I did mention it to his baby nursery a while a go when he went through a few days of repeat behaviour and they said they think he is just particular about things but as he’s getting older the episodes are louder and last longer :(

Have you tried just doing things that help with pda and seeing if they help?

I can see parallel with my son who has autism and is demand avoidance. Things like feeling thirsty can be a demand, or going in the pool or the loo.

It can also be sensory issues, so my son couldn't tell the difference between thirst, hunger, and emotions like fear. It all felt the same. Its hard to explain.

I haven’t really I have only just today came across pda, and kind of ruled it out as it seemed this was more behaviour when they are asked to get dressed for example my son rarely does this when I’m asking something of him , it comes out the blue we can be playing or out having fun and it’s like a switch has flicked and there is no kind of talking or getting through to him , he asks for something he wants is given it and then plays up. Perhaps I need to read more into it I’m hoping to call a health visitor this week to see if they can maybe offer some help/tips

It is such a minefield. I must say both my autistic and NT child had 'fearsome fours'. The terrible twos werent really a thing for either of them.

I just found that a lot of autusm techniques seemed to work for both my children. The pda ones were a bit less universal but I figure it not harmful to try them in chikdren who dont have these conditions and just having a phase.

Do you ever just not give in to all the back and forth contrary stuff? I mean it sounds like he's going to just tantrum anyway so what would he do differently if anything if you just didn't give in to it?

Have you read about the limbic leap? There is a developmental phase around 4y that is extremely challenging. I was worried about all sorts with my eldest and it can be totally normal (if very difficult to manage at the time). DD1 is now 4.5y and we are out of it and the epic upsets have stopped now.

One of my dc was very much like this. As a toddler, he’d ask for something, I’d say “Yes”, and he’d have a meltdown. Not always, but noticeably. Later he was as you describe, wanting something, but unable to engage with it when he got it. We had no idea how to deal with these, other than to just give him space.

We didn't get into the yoyoing to and fro, as it didn’t help. I’d quietly state the options and then step back. Sometimes he’d have a meltdown, sometimes he’d make a choice. If he was safe, I’d let him meltdown, and just stay nearby. Sometimes he’d come to me when he was ready, sometimes he’d fall asleep on the floor.

Ds seemed to grow out of this at about the time he started school. He did have a few meltdowns in the first half term of Reception. He was diagnosed with Autism at 10yo.

Although ds struggled socially until about 13yo, he did well academically. Around 13 he started making friends and developed a lovely circle of friends. Post-GCSEs, his elder brother got a colleague to take ds for work experience. The feedback was so high that the company, which never took work experience students unless they were directly related to employees, then offered to partner with the school to take their students on work experience programmes.

Ds is now happily and independently at university.

PDA, anxiety and ocd are all linked, pda and ocd behaviors flare up if the child is more anxious, so it can be more visible and then seem to ease off.

My autistic DD has OCD traits very similar to what you have described.

Have you found anything that helps or works? Would your child do this with anyone my son only really does this with me or with me in others company I really could not imagine him doing this at school, if this was a mental thing surely he’d have no control when he behaved that way would he? Other than this and being a bit sensitive he has no other signs I don’t think

That’s brill to hear!! I don’t think he has other symptoms he seems to be where he should be with speech, movement, he’s loving, he makes friends, socialises etc it really is just this one issues but it does cause a lot of upset fairly often :(

I'm not dismissing your concerns in the slightest but how are you dealing with these episodes? He asks for a drink. You give it to him. He says he doesn't want it then he does then refuses it then demands you stand somewhere and it "escalates"?
If there is anxiety and confusion, you pandering to him will be making it worse. He's overwhelmed and you're giving him more and more control which he feels unable to handle.

Give him the drink. If he doesn't want it, put it on the table and say "okay. You don't have to drink it but it's there for when you do want it". If he gets upset then by all means scoop him up and comfort him. Tell him you can see he's confused/upset/frustrated. But a whole back and forth seems to be unhelpful at best and exacerbating it at worst.

If these upsets are your only concern I don't think it sounds like autism or PDA (which is usually co morbid with autism rather than it's own, stand alone diagnosis) but there may be some sort of need that's going unmet somewhere (perhaps, as another poster mentioned, an interoception difficulty - that is, struggling to identify internal feelings such as hunger or confusion or thirst or the need to use the loo) and so it's worth keeping an eye on it.

Children can mask, my dc masks in school and in environments they feel less ‘safe’ or supported.

you could be right, in the past we have tried the whole your drink is there when you are ready answer and he will then say while crying ‘mommy I want a drink’ I will reply as mommy told you your drink is there, he will then reply ‘I want you to get it’ so again I will explain mommy offered you your drink you said no it is there when you are ready it then goes from crying over the drink to crying he wants me to give him the drink - if I refuse to get up again to give him the drink the tears crying etc go up a notch again - if we get up and get the drink he goes back to refusing it
I could be wrong but he seems to be okay asking for things as and when he needs/wants them. I guess this is the point of my post really I need some advice how others would approach it as we have tried several different responses and non seem to help :(

No i will have a read of that this has been an ongoing thing now for several months but he will not do it for a while. I previously spoke to his day nursery after several days of similar behaviour and me being really upset they said he’s just particular it will then settle then we will have another episode and I’ll reach out for support again hence my post :( nothing in his routine changed that I can pin point that causes this, I’d get it if we were food shopping and he was bored kind of thing but we can be happy playing doing something for him and something just switches :(

We have tried this approach I think he then gets even more upset and it seems to last longer ‘for example instead of crying he now wants the drink he will cry he wants me to give him the drink’ I guess that’s the point of my post to ask others what approach they would try as I’m stuck as to what could help or what is maybe making him worse or teaching him he will get his own way kind of thing

When he does this, what do you do? Do you keep trying to reason with him, for example? Try to persuade or help him do whatever it is? It might be better instead to tune in to his feelings, which may be of panic. My younger daughter has PDA and what works is not going directly at the problem with helpful solutions but rather pulling back and redirecting or saying something like "never mind, come here for a cuddle".

Wow! Pandering to him much OP. Even if a child has autism they can't get their own way all the time.

We have tried offering a cuddle he refuses, and then goes back to whatever the issue was, tried distraction this occasionally works then he remembers and goes back to the issue

In this scenario you just need to stop trying to fix it with logic because he's not in a logical place - his emotions have taken over and he is stuck in them.

You could either engage in some kind of emotion coaching (e.g. like the How To Talk books) where you validate the feeling and then encourage him to take deep breaths etc or just make sympathetic noises, but stop focusing on what the "problem" is because it probably doesn't matter, he is just a bit tired/thirsty/overwrought because he is 4 and his emotions have developed faster than his ability to self-regulate them, which is totally fine and he will get there. With this approach I would also take some time outside of the upset moment to talk about feelings and how we all feel sad or angry or tired or jealous or frustrated (etc) sometimes and it's normal and OK to feel that way and it doesn't last forever, and maybe look at some things you can do when you feel like your feelings are getting too big like breathing exercises - there are some fun ones for kids, like balloon breathing or blowing out pretend birthday candles.

Or you could give him some space - talking less is often a good idea when a child is stuck in this kind of thing. Trust that he will, after some time, find that the feeling passes and he can fix the problem himself. Go about your day and every so often you can remind him "I'm here when you're ready" or "The drink is on the table when you want it" but basically stop engaging because it is just giving attention to the behaviour, and he is not dying of dehydration nor is his leg broken and unable to take him to the table. He's OK - while this may feel unsympathetic, it doesn't have to be. You can still have sympathy for his feeling while understanding ultimately it doesn't help to rescue them from every bad feeling ever.

Or what helps sometimes is to diffuse with humour - e.g. repeat his request "You want ME to get you the drink? I just sat dowwwwwn! I could not possibly. Nah. I'm too tired. My arms won't stretch. Hggggggggnnnngngh. Nope. Sorry. Wait where was that Mr. Tickle arms button again? I will try that. Hold on one sec." More performance of pretending to reach the drink.

If you feel that "nothing helps" then I would guess that you are over-empathising, acting as though him feeling bad is an emergency/problem and trying to make him feel better by following his requests and looking for the "right" answer, and that won't work because he is not being logical. He just feels all blah and rubbish and he wants you to know that he feels blah and rubbish. And it's OK for him to feel that way and he will also not feel that way forever.

If you feel anxious about trying the middle approach, try setting a stopwatch on your phone (without him seeing) and see how long it actually takes him to calm down. I would bet that it is actually less than 5 minutes, yet you are feeling every second drag on as though the whole thing is 20+ minutes.

A couple of content creators I like who have helped me with the over-empathising issue and helped me see how to help a very deeply feeling child through big emotions without getting lost in them are Janet Lansbury - her website is very searchable, so if you google Janet Lansbury 4yo emotions or something like that, you usually hit on a helpful article. And theteachermomma on instagram has some excellent posts recently too.

If this is happening once every couple of weeks, I don't think you have anything to worry about in terms of neurodivergence, but if the techniques for ND kids help, then use them!