8yo DD hates school and wants to die

[sillysarnies]

Hi, apologies for the long post.

My 8 year old DD has always disliked school. There is definitely some separation anxiety there too. She was really happy during both lockdowns as she got lots of attention from me (her 2 sisters are older and were more self sufficient but school said that she needed an adult with her on zooms so I was with her a lot more). When she went back after the first lockdown, she was in reception and she would tell her teacher every morning that she didn't want to be there and she hated school. After the second lockdown it got gradually worse through years 1 and 2.

Last year, when she started Y3, we looked for some outside help for her. We contacted camhs and tried some therapy but it has got worse and worse. She constantly tells us that she wants to die. She says there's no point to anything. School is a prison. You waste your time at school, then you leave and work really hard. If you have children then you work hard at home too - then after all that you die so what's the point of anything!!! At the end of the summer term she wouldn't go into school without me and several times had to be restrained to stop her following me when I left. She worried about school all through the holidays. She did say that she would try really hard when the new year started and she did manage for a couple of days. But since then she's been more out than in. And if she's in the building, she won't go to class - she paces around in the corridors and stalks me when I'm in too (I'm the music teacher one day a week). She has a TA with her now but she doesn't like her.

When she's been at home, I've tried to do some school work with her but she won't do it. She screams at us all the time that we're pigs and disgusting and the worst parents in the world. She won't go to bed because tomorrow will come - bedtime takes about 2 hours until she is totally exhausted, then, totally subdued, she just takes herself to bed. She won't get up in the morning, screams the place down - which really upsets her sisters and us - and takes forever to get ready to go anywhere, which puts us under a lot of stress. It can take her an hour to get dressed. She is also really worried about eating - she can't decide what she is going to eat, eats very little, very slowly, often isn't hungry and then is suddenly starving and she panics that if this happens in school she won't be able to eat when she needs to. She has definitely lost some weight over the last few months.

I honestly don't know where to turn. She is going to start some play therapy next week. We are having family therapy at camhs (this came through her oldest sister who is autistic) but I think it is making things worse as her sisters let loose on her there about how her screaming and saying she wants to die is driving them crazy and she can't cope with that. She has been discharged from the neurodiversity team at camhs - they said that all the questionnaires we filled in showed that she isn't autistic and doesn't have adhd - I think she kind of has a few traits from a lot of things but nothing is strong enough for any kind of diagnosis. They have been gathering info on her but everything moves so slowly and she - and we - really need help now! The ed psych report came through with lots of steps the school needs to take to get her back in there but it's going to be a long road if it's even possible. She constantly says she wants to die and it gets worse if we even mention school. We are all really struggling.

Sorry for such a long post but I don't know what else we can do. Any ideas for how to support her - and the rest of us - please?

My advice is get her away from CAMHS and into private if you can (we borrowed money to do it).

My DD was 8 when she first talked about harming herself; the wheels utterly fell off when she went to high school. It was horrific.

She was privately diagnosed with autism and adhd, and I don't believe she would be alive now left to CAMHS.

The consultant we spoke to was absolutely appalled at her story, and said that aged 8, it's absolutely not normal to have these thoughts, and they should have been taken very seriously as a sign there was more going on that we knew.

She's on Prozac now and doing brilliantly and I don't want to scare you, but push so hard to deal with it now, before you get to a different age and it's all more complicated by puberty and the big change of high school.

We also borrowed money to go private while waiting for/alongside CAMHS (who were actually very good in our experience).

My daughter was 8 when she suddenly became extremely and terrifying mentally ill, I felt like we were fighting for her life at one point & we also took a loan out when I left work to be with her, it didn’t feel like a choice to me at that time, I just had to do it.

We didn’t know she was autistic, and I’m not sure that I will ever forgive myself for leaving her crying her heart out & leaving her at that school door and begging me not to leave her ( she has forgiven me though, as that is how she is!)

Once she recovered from burn out, she was no longer mentally ill; she was safe again once we stopped forcing her to school.

I have every sympathy for you. We have similar issues with my 8 yo granddaughter. Her behavior in the morning before school leaves us treading on eggshells. It’s not that she doesn’t like school,she does but it’s the getting ready and the obsession with her hair and clothes that has to be perfect. There’s behaviors most days and screaming fits and ‘I want to die’, and ‘I wish you’d die.’ It’s all very upsetting and emotionally draining. We have sought medical advice but she doesn’t have any issues like adhd or autism. It’s to do with her parents divorcing and like your DD there was separation anxiety. There’s usually an underlying problem when they act in such a way. Does your DD have any problems with bullying in school that might be the trigger for her behaviors.

Home education is the first thing that sprang to my mind.

There is a 'Not Fine in school' group on FB but I would join HEFA Home Education Group and speak to people there. It's an enormous, thriving, very active and informative group.

How well do you monitor her screentime? Is she / was she exposed to much older or negative relatives? It seems very unusual for an 8 yo to say this off the cuff. Delve deeper and review how older siblings talk to her and what they’re searching. My younger dn went through a period of severe death anxiety at 3-5 because his asd brother (who was 12) would talk constantly to him about death

Could she have an eating disorder such as early anorexia? I apologise for the suggestion, but the weight loss, separation anxiety and desire for your full attention, pacing the corridors and tantrums made me wonder. I don't have experience with this but it was my first thought.

Request a meeting with the SENCO at school. You can apply for an EHCP on the basis of SEMH needs - there are specialist nurturing SEMH provisions/ schools which she would likely be able to access with an EHCP.

I would also question what support school is currently putting in place for her - does she have a learning plan/ one page profile etc? What does this detail?

Did this come on quite suddenly, op?

Please look into Pans/pandas. We are going through something very similar at the moment, it’s horrific

I remember having these thoughts (still do if being honest) and it all stemmed from a bad introduction to death. Lockdown was obviously full of death talk and she would be just at that age where you learn about it. It’s such a sensitive milestone and if it goes wrong it can be so traumatic. Sometimes with anxieties, we talk about them to “prevent” it from happening. Or are just fixated so talk about them. It’s too scary to outright say “I’m scared of this thing and think about it all the time” but it comes out. Also, with death it’s so inevitable that sometimes it seems like what’s the point in asking for reassurance.

anyway no idea but thought I’d chuck it out there in case that’s part of what going on.

Maybe she just needs to not be at school? Or flexi? She sounds depressed - this definitely happens to children too. Does anything make her happy/forget these thoughts?

so many different approaches, in the summer when she was out of school how was she?
IF during the summer she was more content and at ease i would consider unschooling (home ed based on personal interests not a set curriculum).
despite camhs not seeing any neurodiversity, i suspect they have either missed it or it will become more obvious as your dd ages and is able to express herself better.
The 11 Principles of Unschooling (thegreenparent.co.uk)

Has she ever had any friends? Starting school when still anxious about mixing with people could have really reinforced a deeper fear. This would get worse over the years as she felt more socially isolated. I have an older ASD child as well and there are effects on younger siblings from having an ASD sibling as your primary playmate. She had possibly never felt the kind of connection she's seeking, hence the separation anxiety with you.

So I'd focus on building up low stress friendships. You'll have to "entertain" more than most until she gets the hang of it, just have biscuits they can decorate or give DD some ideas before her friend gets there.

Can you encourage her to try clubs, like a forest school or dance or anything outside school to make social connections without pressure or the social dynamics at school that she can see without really understanding. Is there the option to take few weeks break from school - tell her it's to make a plan together.

Good luck, it sounds awful, a perfect storm at a crucial stage of development, but she's still little and has a lovely family.

You mentioned separation anxiety, does she get upset when she’s away from you generally not just when she has to go to school?

Hi op, I couldn’t read and run as am going through a similar situation even though my dd is 13, it’s terrifying and frustrating and you feel so alone. I get what you’re going through.

today I will be officially de-registering my dd from school. She has not attended since October 16th last year and I can count the amount of times she has left the house in that time on both of my hands. She was diagnosed with autism last November after a huge delay due to Covid but was first picked up when she was 8. Her anxiety is off the scale and she found the transition to high school too much and couldn’t mask any longer.

school have let her down ( long story ) and after seeing CAMHS a few weeks ago I have little faith in our MH system as the nurse told me she doesn’t think dd is fit for school and has since denied saying this and the council are putting pressure on me to get her to school or face fines/prosecution etc, I actually despair.

I’ve joined not fine in school on Facebook and there are so many of us going through similar. Pls message me if you want to chat or rant whatever. I wish your dd all the best.

Hi all

Thank you so much for all your replies and support. I haven't had the chance to read and digest fully what you've all said but to answer some questions:

She does have friends - friends definitely aren't the issue. All her friends are in her class at school. But when we do playdates they generally come to us. She went out to her first playdate in months on Sunday and was really stressed about going, though she had a great time when she was there. There is no bullying involved as far as I know. It's just school she hates.

Her older sister also hated school when she was in primary and it's possible she has picked up on this (she got her asd diagnosis in Y5). Camhs therapy suggested that she might have some kind of trauma from watching her older sister struggle with this. Older sister is now in Y9 and loves secondary, though she does get burnt out sometimes and has to stay home for a day or so to recover...

I work part time. DH is a full time teacher. I don't know if I could home school her as she doesn't want to learn anything with me at the moment. When I'm in her school, she just follows me around. She has been coming into my other school with me and just sitting at the back and watching.

I'm dreading getting her up in a minute.

Oh and she's not one of the youngest - she's February!

Sounds identical to my dd12 who has autism. The wheels came off at secondary school and we had to take her out after a couple of months. She has a tutor a few hours a week at home until a specialist school can be found.

This does sound like autism to me. Is there any way you could afford a private assessment? I think it could be worth it to get a diagnosis to use as a lever to get her the support she needs.

Schools are toxic places for ND kids. They try to use a one size fits all and it just does not work.

It's shocking that they would say it's not ASD when she has a sibling with ASD, It runs in families and was the first thing I thought when you said she had a sibling with ASD.

What did they ask that showed she wasn't autistic - because she's obviously having huge issues with anxiety which is very common with ASD, big problems with transitions when going to friends houses, issues around eating which is very common with ASD. She really needs to see someone who specialises in ASD and can recognise it in girls, not just go on boxes ticked and questionnaires. DS who always had friends at primary was also diagnosed late primary which is where the social differences suddenly become more obvious - he was diagnosed despite the questionnaire from school making him sound like the perfect child.

A diagnosis however is not going to make her happier at school, and if she already has a TA isn't going to get her much more in the way of support.What would she like to be doing all day? Does she have any particular interests. I think I'd pull her out as she's not learning anything anyway and let her lead the learning as much as possible by her interests. At primary school I remember doing a huge project on fish (subject of my choice) that went on for ages - could you imagine that happening now?

Thanks. I did wonder about the asd but I don't think she is autistic. She kind of has a few traits of asd and a few of adhd but it's not enough for her to 'meet the criteria.' Her sister only just got diagnosed and that was because, despite all the questionnaires etc, they did a school visit and observed her there and that was enough to push it through. Either way, as you say, a diagnosis doesn't do much for now.

She has been off for a lot of this week now. I'm trying today to be as positive as possible for her and not talk about school. She is very into cooking and baking, so I might go that way (and try to get some maths in sneakily along the way) with her. She hasn't really found her 'thing' yet. She is obsessed with cuddly toys and can never have enough of them. She likes art and music. I think I'm going to have to be as creative with her as possible. Today has very much been a screen day apart from her popping into a school with me for choir. We couldn't go for the full day as her anxiety was so bad this morning - she wouldn't get up and then when she did (when I said I wasn't going to send her in) she spent ages pacing round upstairs from the bathroom to the bedroom saying - die, die, die over and over again.

School secretary asked if we were just playing into her hands and making it harder for her to go back. But as DH said, she's not learning anything in school anyway and she's miserable, I'd rather have a happy child than a suicidal one - a child who wants to die isn't going to learn anything either. And this is a hard lesson for me to take on board as a teacher... we really value education in our family. Guess we're going to have to find a different form of education.

Thanks for all your support everyone.

Op, have you looked into Pans/pandas??

My daughter is exactly the same I'm here now balling my eyes out because she threatens me saying what's the point she wants to kill herself that she wants to be home schooled we are the worst parents ever and she's going to tell the school I'm cruel for making her do something she doesn't want to do we also think she has adhd or autism but school brushed that off she is the same has slight traits but not massive enough for them to notice I think she masks at school and let's it all out at home I also don't know what to do it breaks my heart when she's having these melt downs she's also 8 it's like reading about my daughter I'm not very educated to just take her out of school and worried if I did home school her she would fall behind I'm not sure when you posted this I googled it and this is what come up I can relate mama so if any updates would be appreciated and any help anyone would also be appreciated sending love to the struggling family's out their that feel alone xx

Hi OP another one wishing you well and seeing if you had any updates. I’m so sorry you have gone through this, we are in the same place and it’s unbearable. I hope things improved for your daughter, I have no idea where to turn for my DD (9).
We have CAMHS next week but I think I’ve been hoping that will explain everything and roll out a great treatment programme, but pretty sure I’m kidding myself.