Suicide attempts and mental health issues

[ArchiesCastle]

A Dad, not a Mum here.

I have full time custody of my 14 year old daughter. She has been struggling with her mental health for some time now, with incidents of self harm, and sadly this week another attempt at taking an overdose which ended up at A&E, and fortunately failed.

I have been desperately trying to get support for her - through her school, also through Children's Services , but all that has happened so far is lots of forms being filled in, and her being placed on waiting lists for help, but no actual help. This has been going on for over a year now.

She is a bright child, but has missed lots of school because of her mental health problems, and she has her GCSEs next year. As things stand, I'd be surprised if she gets to take them, without some proper support being put in place.

Reading around about CAMHS, who we have yet to see, makes me feel quite discouraged - few people have anything good to say about them, and the waiting lists are enormous. Even after the suicide attempts, there has been no useful contact with them, apart from a brief call, and no advice on how to try and stop something like this happening again.

For those who have been through something similar - what other options are ? Did CAMHS ever help? Or would going private have been a better option in hindsight ? Can any charities help?

We need someone that can actually work with my daughter and help her deal with her specific issues, not just an organisation that hands out generalised advice on good practice to support mental health.

Experiences and thoughts welcome

There is some great advice here.

I would recommend reading the book 'the explosive child' by Ross Greene. It will give you some really good strategies to help going forward.

Having been the self harming suicidal teen myself I remember everyone telling me what to do how to get better etc etc but no one looked at how I felt or why. My situation was different to your daughter though as I'm autistic and was then undiagnosed. Was misdiagnosed BPD in my teens so reading your comments I'd say read up on autism in girls. Her mum may have BPD or maybe misdiagnosed autism. Just read up so you know your stuff on it just in case. Her thinking it's everyone else who's wrong and she's the victim hints to me that she's struggling to understand different ways of thinking possibly. Read up on BPD and autism and if autism sounds likely find the money for diagnosis honestly it's a lot but worth it. I coped better with life as an adult I had no choice once I had kids- but getting my diagnosis years later was like a switch in my head. There was no longer anything to 'fix' I wasn't wrong I didn't have to do better I was just different

My mother would probably have sounded like you she was desperate to get me help and very vocal about my problems not being supported. But actually she wanted someone else to do the wok for her and is very histrionic and loves the attention she got for the stress I put her through. Eventually when no help came she kicked me out as a teen. I'm a parent myself now and sadly I see that when my kid needs me I can't show how hard it is on me (I have a violent autistic child myself now). They can't care about how we feel and should not be feeling guilt over struggling.

What is helping my violent self harming child's MH is me saying does not matter what you do I will always love you. I piss him off I say it so much. But I have to show it too. He trashes his room I say well yeah that has upset me it's creating work for me and it will cost money to fix but I understand you we're struggling and you could have trashed the whole house I would still love you. No consequences for his behaviour other than the natural ones on no iPad now it's broken etc. and he's changing less self harm less violence when he feels bad more "mummy you will always love me right?" He needs an unreasonable amount of reassurance. His dad has mostly rejected him for his behaviours so there is similarity with your daughter but my son is younger male and diagnosed autistic- he's got it hard but honestly girls have it soooo much worse in this world. And your daughter is of an age where she's entering the male gaze and that's not a comfortable experience for many.

It is definitely to do with this.

External support is obviously critical but I really do think that alongside this you can learn and practice some more about how to have a proper conversation with her acknowledging her experiences and listening to how she feels. I know you’ve said she won’t, is aggressive etc. but it also sounds like you have given up on these conversations. I’d really recommend looking up how to have these conversations, there are actual skills you can learn.

Despite that, there are so many other ways to communicate with her. Write her a letter, send her texts, buy her a card, buy her a present ‘for no reason’. I think it’s absolutely vital that you communicate with her daily about how much you love her and that you’ll never leave her. However you communicate that, and whatever is thrown back at you (more than likely intially) commit to doing it every day in some way.

Yes, to external agencies, but still, there are things you can do.

. Her thinking it's everyone else who's wrong and she's the victim hints to me that she's struggling to understand different ways of thinking possibly.

Interesting. My ASD Dd blames anyone, but never herself.

The only thing I’d say about this is it does. sound like OP and ex-wife did do things that were very wrong.

Have these wrong doings also been conceded and apologised for? Explicitly, and repeatedly?

If not, if the adults haven’t taken accountability for their mistakes, the 14 YO isn’t going to

I'd recommend looking into the double empathy problem/paradigm. I'm not sure its exact name.

Op I’m so sorry to read what you’re going through, we are in a similar position here with our dd having attempted suicide via overdosing several times. The most recent time being a few months back. We are so out of our depth to be honest, it’s terrifying. Neither myself nor dh are mental health professionals, we have had no training in how to support her going through this.
Dd was in hospital for 5 days this time as she’d caused herself some significant kidney/liver damage and needed longer treatment than she had previously. The day before she was deemed fit to go home a woman from CAMHS came to speak to her. Dh went to the cafe and towards the end of their meeting he went up to see if he could speak to her about what we could do at home. Her words to him were to go home and not talk about it, move on, she’s a bright girl and knows what she’s doing. He was momentarily speechless he said, and then asked her if what she was saying was to just go home and wait for it to happen again and he said she shrugged her shoulders and walked off. I was beyond disgusted. Dd was told she would receive a phonecall the next day, in the evening when she should have been home. I had dds phone for 2 weeks after she was in hospital and not once did anyone attempt To make contact with her. 2 weeks after that we received a letter to say she had been discharged as she had failed to engage with their services.
speaking to her college headteacher to put a safety plan in place and they couldn’t believe it and said we should raise a formal complaint. Same with the school my ds goes to, they were made aware of the situation by whichever authority and they were told to keep an eye on him as his sister was suicidal and refusing to engage with support services. They also encouraged us to raise a formal complaint.
I don’t have it in me. I’m so focussed on trying to do my job as a parent that I don’t have the energy to start a fight with someone for not doing their job properly. And also for the lies.
the majority of people I’ve spoken to have said the same about CAMHS, it’s totally ineffective.
dd has been seeing a counsellor again that we have gone private for and I took her back to the doctors the day after we came out of hospital and she has now started on some medication to try and hopefully level out her moods in combination with lots of other things, there’s no wonder pill sadly.
so sorry to anyone who has gone through this, you’re only ever as happy as your saddest child, it’s so tough 💐

Can I just take this opportunity to thank everyone who is contributing to this thread? There are lots of good ideas and thoughts here , and it has given me lots of avenues to chase up. I very much appreciate your time and energy in commenting

There is a rush on this thread OP to see your DD as the problem.
But you have shared some very traumatic things she has been through. She also says you are a crap dad, are you? And she is obviously very angry.
It is common for girls especially to turn anger inwards into self harm.
You have asked her what the problem is, but you say she does not tell you. Maybe to her it is obvious, but you think she should be over everything that has happened?

If I was you I would write a letter to her apologising for things you have done wrong to her. You say yoyrself it was a very messy divorce. Do not use excuses or justifications, just acknowledge what you did wrong, that it hurt her and you are sorry.

Read the book listen so teenagers will talk and talk so they will listen. And think honestly about your behaviour. Read about parenting traumatised teenagers, you may need to read about adopting parenting strategies for this. Your DD has had an exceptionally hard time. She will be traumatised. She will not behave like an untraumatised teenager. She needs support from you with that.

Counselling can provide support, but it can't change a difficult home situation for a teenager. You need to look more honestly at your role here.

"Her thinking it's everyone else who's wrong and she's the victim hints to me that she's struggling to understand different ways of thinking possibly."

And this quote really stands out as one that strongly hints that you are minimising what has happened to her. If she feels you are minimising the traumatic things that have happened she may go the other way and over emphasise her pain and trauma to try and get you to take it seriously. Instead she is dismissed as playing the victim.

hamstersarse

With regard to what happened in the past that may have affected my daughter's attitude/development - it is complicated, as is often the case.

Mum has a long history of mental health problems, dating back to before the children were born. She and I always both wanted children, but she seemed unprepared mentally for them when they arrived , and she struggled to bond with the children, and do all the typical 'Mum' type things.

Doctors put that down to post-natal depression, and there may have been some of that involved, but her long-standing mental health problems also played a role too

To try and mitigate that, we hired childminders and I sometimes had spells at being at home instead of her , so she could be away from the kids during the working day.

Unfortunately, she didn't find going out to work any easier than staying at home and looking after the kids, and at one point she was sectioned because she was threatening overdose and suicide. She was also regularly self-harming during this period.

The final straw, which prompted the divorce, was that she attempted suicide in front of the kids , and they had to be rescued from the house by Children's Services. The daughter in question was sat on her lap as she did this, aged 6 years old. She still remembers this.

Obviously these are not great conditions for children to grow up in. Which is why I divorced - to take away that instability from the family and try and provide a better home environment for them.

With regards to apologies, yes I have apologised many times for what the children were exposed to. But their Mum views the situation differently. Like my daughter, she thinks all her actions, the self-harm , the suicide attempts , getting my daughter arrested etc, were all justified. Like my daughter, she always sees herself as the victim, and she told the authorities that she was being bullied by her children, and that threatening self harm was the only was to stop them bullying her.

That's why it's difficult when the two of them are together. They both want to see themselves as the victim, and both blame the other one for the friction between them. And so it tends to escalate, sometimes into physical violence .

With regard to 'attachment issues', yes of course those exist in all of our family relationships. But my understanding is that they come as a standard feature as part of the BPD make-up, so I'm not sure if treating those separately , without treating the rest of the BPD, is the best option?

My child has attempted suicide 3 times, twice with huge paracetamol overdoses. The first and second time we were sent home with a leaflet and a safety plan, the third time I refused to take them home until a support package was put in place. I felt awful doing so as it was all my child wanted, but now we have weekly camhs visits to the house, a social worker, a reduced timetable at school, and support for my other children who are witnessing these behaviours.My child is engaging more with us and professionals, is sticking more to the safety plan....I still have to check constantly for hidden sharps, and make sure anything that could be used to cause harm is locked away.
I would recommend the website 'parentingmentalhealth' which also has a Facebook group, youngminds and papyrus as sources of information, and support.

She’s right about one thing - she IS the victim. Of her early childhood experiences, of her mother’s mental illness, or her parent’s divorce. Add on to that puberty, lockdown, exam stress and it’s a recipe for disaster. It’s completely understandable that you, as her parent, is getting the brunt of her challenging behaviour. She’s been rejected by her mum, so most likely is just waiting for the same thing from you.
Her room is a place of sanctuary - as such, she wants it left alone. As annoying as it might be to see it in such a mess, is the mess going to cause her to come to any real harm? Probably not. It’s a battle that you can ignore for now. She most likely feels out of control and your attempts to help her by arranging counselling is just compounding the belief that there must be something wrong with her.
Regarding her attempts to harm herself, do you think they are serious, as in shes had to have medical attention, or a cry for attention? What did the doctors say when you took her to hospital?
I would say that its important to avoid any conversations around her about possible BPD - in her mind it would sound like you think shes just like her mum, and she obviously doesn’t want to be like her.

alloutofluck

If you stop and think about it, you'll probably realise it's a bit unlikely I'm a crap Dad. Crap Dads don't tend to post on Mumsnet, trying to get advice to help their daughter. Crap Dads don't tend to take on full time custody of their three kids after divorce. Crap Dads don't tend to make complaints to all the relevant local services to persuade them to do something concrete to help a self-harming daughter. Crap Dads more tend to walk away from situations like this, as other posters on this thread have indicated.

With regards to trauma , yes, obviously I understand that she has been through a lot. But so have we all. For example, my older daughter used to physically abuse me. She would kick and punch me, and leave me with bruises all over my body, which I would take photos of for my own security. Naturally, I never retaliated, and tried to care for her to the best of my ability anyway.

But do I come onto this thread, and play the victim? Do I scream and shout and behave angrily that I didn't deserve to be physically abused, and it is all so unfair, and therefore I should have the right make life hell for everyone around me, as an example of my pain? Is that my right, because an injustice has been done to me ? No, it isn't. It would just be contributing to the problem.

We all have pain over things that were done to to us. But if we let that influence how we treat others, it becomes a never ending cycle of anger, hate and recrimination .

Because bad things happened to you in the past, it doesn't mean you get a free pass to act however you like , and make the present bad for other people. You have to be accountable for what you do now to others. Therefore, since nobody is hurting my daughter now , in fact she is the one that is hurting others and herself, it seems reasonable that she is the focus of attention in terms of solving the problem.

pjani

Thanks for the advice about trying different therapists. That might make it easier to find one that gels with her. It is important to get her buy in , as if she won't co-operate, the therapy won't ever work.

I will work with the sport - it does seem to help her mood when she can exercise .

And I'll look into teen support groups - thank you

LacieLane

Thanks for the advice about contacting our MP. If it makes a difference - happy to do it. Always useful to have a view from the inside

@ArchiesCastle

But your daughter is still a child. She is the victim! She doesn't just see herself as the victim it's reality for her.

I'm by no means minimising what you yourself have been through. It sound like utter hell for you and I'm so sorry you have had this all happening. But you absolutely need to separate your trauma and your ex trauma from your child's trauma.

Really question yourself. Do you say things like"I'm sorry but I tried my best" "I/someone had to work" "I did the best I could" "it wasn't easy for me" etc etc. you need to switch it to things like "I'm sorry this all happened it's not fair" "you deserved better" etc. just let her say whatever she says and don't try to rationalise it or fix it just let her let the poison out.

Having lived as the troubled child and now being parent to the struggling child I'm regularly reminded of my mothers comments. I can fully empathise with what my mother went through with me and my less than perfect father. But it is NEVER the child who should acknowledge what the parent went through until they themselves are an adult. And well into adulthood at that.

Let her be the victim. Pander to it. Draw a line at the violence to others but allow the self pity, give endless love and understanding and support. She has a lot to heal from and that will take a long long time. And don't forget while her brain was supposed to be developing healthy coping mechanisms, empathy, understanding of others etc etc she was just having to survive through trauma so likely skipped over much of that development. Give her the time to heal and the development will come. Lots of psychological research shows brains develop this stuff up to age 25 so you have time. If you push to heal and push for more than she's capable of then she may never develop these skills and end up like her mother. Your fear of that could bring it about by accident.

Even without the trauma she's a young female without her mother. If possible I'd look at ways to facilitate healthy relationships with adult women or one adult woman. Is there an aunt or grandmother who can spend time with her? Our family cleaning lady stepped into that role for me and I swear to his she saved my life. All she ever did was make me hot chocolate, let me rant, not tell me off for swearing, not give advice unless asked and let me play on her child PlayStation while she got on with her ironing work.

She's just a child. Never forget she's just a child. If her mother would threaten self harm to guilt her into behaving, if she heard her mother say she was bullying her own mother etc when did she get the chance to be selfish and to feel the victim? Let her go back and act like the hurt 6 year old who's lived through that. Give her the time and love to process it or she won't be able to move on

Theoscargoesto

Thanks for your input.

She currently has counselling arranged through school , and I think it helps her, in the sense that it gives her someone safe to vent to. But I'm not sure it really is enough to stop her self harming or taking overdoses.

The way she looks at the world seems to be more the problem. When she took the recent overdose, I naturally tried to think back to see if there was any identifiable trigger. The only thing I can think of, which happened on the same day, is that the front door of our house jammed, and I couldn't lock it. Because I couldn't lock it, I couldn't leave the house, and so I wasn't able to pick her up from one of her sports events. So I phoned her, and asked if she could go around to one of her friends houses , until I could get the door fixed.

She got angry with me on the phone, because again in her opinion, this made me an awful father - not being there to pick her up. Even though I had fixed the door within half an hour, and then told her I could come and get her. Later that evening, she took an overdose.

Things like this , practical problems in life ,happen all the time, and you just have to roll with them. It is a problem with the way you look at the world if you think they are so huge, that life is not worth living as a result. She needs help to adjust her perspective , and see that things like this aren't so terrible.

Fraaahnces

Thanks for your kind comments, and your support.

I'll investigate the things you've suggested

PurpleBugz

Thank you for your input and viewpoint. I'm sorry to hear of the difficulties that you have had in parenting your own son.

Personally, I'm not sure I can subscribe to the ideology that "child=victim"

I have three children, and they all have mental health issues. They also have hurt each other over the years, both physically and emotionally. How do you think they would react if one bullied another, and as a parent I refused to acknowledge that, and said 'because you are both children, you are both victims, and therefore no-one is to blame?' It feels unfair and unjust to the child who is being badly treated, and a license for the other to continue the bullying. I think as a parent, you have to promote a sense of fairness and justice, and take a stance regarding the ethical values you believe in. If that means telling a child their behaviour is unacceptable, I think you have to do it , for the benefit of the other children and the other people around them.

If this means that a child is made to feel that
they are 'wrong', because they are not allowed to do exactly as they like, or live out their destructive feelings, surely that's a first step towards getting them to change their behaviour ?

Just because we strongly feel like doing something, doesn't necessarily give us the right ...

Poor girl! Wish I could give her a hug! She has seen more than even adults could wrap their heads around. I imagine that she blames herself on some level for her mother’s predicament. I also wonder how she processed the abuse you received at the hands of her sister. She probably has ver polarised views of the strengths and weaknesses of men as a result of her early upbringing and what she has seen and overheard.

Girls are excellent maskers. I am myself (autism and ADHD) but I don't actually know what people are thinking. I just made a massive effort to learn the rules.
People think I'm super social and can't believe that I'm actually autistic but that's another story.

And neuro diversity is often hereditary.

Having said that there's too much going on here for anybody to jump to any diagnoses. If you do decide to go private your first step should be a child and family trauma specialist.

Also I do think for cases like this 'counselling' isn't enough. It's useful for low level issues, but the counsellee has to do a lot of the work.

What you need is someone who can unpick how your daughter's brain works... What pathways have been formed. What is she responding to and why.

MykonosMaiden

Thanks for the postings . I agree, I don't think counselling on its own will do much good. Which is why I am trying to get her more substantial help. It does give her someone to talk to , and vent with, but I also have some concern that it reinforces her worldview , in which everything around her is bad, and she can trust no-one.

And yes, her neurosiversiity may well be hereditary.

Só sorry to hear all this. From personal experience, I would try -

Your Doctor.
Pastoral lead at school - they can also refer to CAHMS.
A Young Minds advisor told me it's who shouts loudest - absolutely insist that CAHMS gets involved - be persistent and demanding.
Private CBT therapist or you should be able to access one through a mental health charity eg Young Minds. They will give her the strategies she needs.
Private psychiatrist - GP can refer but you would have to pay unless child services involved.

Purplebugz has it absolutely spot on about the impact of the trauma your daughter has experienced on her. Don't dismiss or underestimate this because it may seem that your daughter is exhibiting difficult or challenging behaviours. Your daughter is traumatised, and her behaviour and responses now will be borne out of her life experiences and the way that trauma has impacted on her emotional and brain development. I'd suggest reading up on how childhood trauma affects children.