Friend with 'really difficult' child needing therapy and I can't bring myself to tell her

[DoTheRightThang99]

Help! Advice needed!

I have a dear friend (who lives in Germany) whom I've known for >20 years who, at 38, had a much-desired little girl. The couple have always been anxious parents and the dad (sometimes!) gets stressed out really easily but is otherwise really laid back and great fun. The little girl is now 9 years' old. The family is professional and well off and the mother does not work.
Over the last 5 years, I have been increasingly reluctant to visit my friend as her daughter is really 'difficult'.
At first I thought there was something wrong with the child, then I thought it was just terrible parenting (since they seemed to take action which exacerbated the issue), but now I am beginning to realise that there is something seriously wrong with the child and the parents are not dealing with it well.
The child seems to be incredibly spoilt and to have very little regard for the feelings of others, poor social skills and displays extremely narcissistic (and often rude) behaviour, whilst at the same time, showing signs of considerable anxiety in situations which, for her age, should be quite ordinary (e.g. staying over at a friend's house) or being asked to help wrap a surprise present for her mum's birthday.
The little girl's behaviour is really upsetting for both parents, but the mother tries to logicalise it away and constantly tries to placate her increasingly despotic daughter. I have to bite my tongue and be really careful as there is absolutely NO WAY my own children would get away with a fraction of what this increasingly manipulative and down-right nasty girl does. It is shocking and yet goes completely unchecked.

Saying something to her mum
In mentioning the situation to others, many have suggested that it is none of my business and that, in saying something to her mother, I risked losing someone who is a very dear friend for me.
(I once had the misfortune - when the child was just a toddler - to mention that putting orange juice in a Tippy Cup for the girl to sip all day was a bad idea (from a dental perspective) and that I was always careful to only give water in these cups for my own children. I suffered almost 2 days of slightly stand-off-ish silent treatment from the mother, before it was mentioned and I found myself apologising for having said anything!)
It has also placed considerable strain on my friend's relationship with her mother, who she is very close to emotionally (though not geographically, sadly). She has often fallen out with her mother and I believe has collapsed criticism of her daughter as criticism of herself.

My own children (now teenagers) do not like the little girl and request to be absent when she is a guest in our home and have not wished to come with us when we have visited them in Germany.

I have just returned from a 4-day visit which was really fraught when the child was not getting her way. (I am treading on egg-shells around the girl at that point and try to have as little to do with her as possible. I busy myself with other things, like cooking etc. as I have to admit that I find her unpredictable, uncooperative and unpleasant to play with. She has always been this way.)

When describing the child's latest behaviour to my 16-yr old son (who is interested in psychology and mental disorders (he has weird friends!) and seems to have a good grasp of this stuff), he has suggested that, at best, the child has a quite significant anti-social disorder and I must speak out. (If I don't, he says, he is prepared to, for the child's sake.)
I've researched it a bit on the internet and the child's behaviour does seem to chime alarmingly with this. She is increasingly despotic, selfish, manipulative and narcissistic and my concern, on reading what this turns into, is that it is only going to get worse and their only and much-loved child will have, at best, a very difficult life and at worst, ... well, anyway!
The mother tries very hard to cope and is filled with unconditional love for her, inventing seemingly rational reasons for what is clearly 'abnormal' (not to mention unpleasant) behaviour.
My son explains that, for the child's sake, I must say something. The child clearly needs therapy and this will not end well.
I am terrified of lifting the lid on any of this, but at the same time, I fear what my friend will ask me, in 15 years' time, when the problem was so apparent to me now, why I stayed silent.

What can/should I do?
Should I say something?
How can I stay silent?
How can I brooch the subject?
(We recently met an English pediatrician mum in Germany (by chance in a coffee shop). I could ask her to say something, but then I fear that would be such a betrayal of my friendship with the girl's mother.)
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of situation?

Help!

I've had to do this to a very close friend. I did lots and lots of research and then over time started discussing ideas ( we both have other severly autistic DC ) it helped that DS9 was bring DX with ASD too.
Anyhoo I send her all the literature and asked her to read it ... They are currently going through a dx for PDD and ODD ....he response was " why didn't you fucking mention this to me earlier !!!!?????"
My response ...I needed to give you the evidence not just say...your kids a little shit !!!!
Good luck... If she's a good friend tell her... Also I have 3dc and and she had 2dc so I had 1 NT child and she was sad that she didn't ...but now we laugh at our mad families with Thier traits and we offer each other cast iron support !!!!

Aspd is rarely a diagnosis given to children.

However her behaviour sounds like it may fit with pda, which is a particular type of asd. And if so, thank fuck her mum is undersranding and uncodionationally supportive because that's what's recommended for managing pda.

Op- if you genuinely want to help go get a copy of the explosive child, read it to better understand and be more compassiobate and then send your friend a copy and say wow look what i found, it sounds so like your lovely but anxious dd.

Both my children have SN and can be difficult, especially with communication.

I don't always want to discuss it with my friends as it takes over our lives enough already. All I want from my friends is their support if I ask for it and people to have fun with!

So I would suggest just being there for your friend, bite your tongue but offer help and support, and your opinion if she asks for it.

I didn't give specific examples of the girl's behaviour because I'm not looking for a view as to WHETHER she needs therapy but rather HOW I can broach the subject with the mother

As a starting point, do NOT broach it with her in the way you have here. We'd all be forgiven for missing the fact that your family and theirs actually don't live in the same country and don't see eachother very often from the way you've dressed down all of them in your OP.

And also, frankly, stop discussing this child with your son. He's only a child himself, just 7 years older than the child who you're taking advice from him for. He is in no way in a good position to give advice on another child's psychological needs, weird friends or not. Neither are you.

Let her parents parent her. Support your friend. Stop getting life advice from a 16 year old and letting him play the big I am with all this "if you don't say something to your friend about my theory that her child, who we don't see often, needs therapy, then I will!" Somebody's parenting is lacking here, and you haven't given us enough info about your friend for us to know if it's hers.

You don't like your friend's daughter.

Yes she sounds like a much longed for and loved child of an older couple who may be a bit spoiled by her doting parents but this does not mean she needs therapy. She may pick up anxiety from her anxious father.

I am sure if there are serious problems then her school would have flagged them up with her parents.

Remember she is 9 and a bit spoilt and this will be why your teenage/older children don't want to hang out with her when she comes over or not want to go there. They have nothing in common with her. My teens don't necessarily want to hang out with my friends' kids even if they are the same age!

I would just leave well alone and just decide whether you like your friend enough to invite her to stay or for you to stay there without commenting on her daughter or her way of raising her child.

Well said LilyMcClellan

OP, if your friend saw what you wrote about her child - she'd never speak to you again. I wouldn't blame her. Don't pretend to have her interests at heart and then use such vile language to describe her child.

I think you began in a place of wanting to help your friend but I think you should consider how very far you have moved from that starting point

The language you use to describe a child who you think may have mental health issues or a serious diagnosable disorder are deeply judgemental and unpleasant. It's impossible to read what you have written and be in any doubt that you dislike and blame this child.

If your friend was actually your friend I think you would recoil from being so incredibly unkind about her much loved child. You might also resist the urge to blame the mother.

The only good reason to speak to the mother would be to own up to that. As the mother of a child with ASD I would want to know if someone I thought was my friend was privately forming dreadful views about me and my child

I suspect I will go in the pile of posters you are angry with because I disagree with you but maybe think about just the possibility that you are at least very misguided about what you think constitutes helping your 'friend'

Oh ffs as a nine year old I would get terribly homesick on sleepovers. You haven’t actually mentioned any specific behaviour so stop being so bloody interfering.

Not commenting on OP.

But I'm laughing at the number of posters spouting that a 16yo with an interest in a specialist field has the audacity to suggest a child might have a condition and yet the other half of posters (who are probably as equally unqualified and may or may not have read about it ) are suggesting a diagnosis of asd.

I don’t know about the little girl concerned here as I feel your opinion of her is colouring the way she has been presented in the OP.

It’s hard to advise you on broaching the subject because you don’t portray much humility and kindness. Which is how a truly concerned person should approach this.

You complain about not receiving support as if you are unquestionably entitled to it. Isn’t your friend entitled to support rather than judgement?

Your son is prepared to say something?
I'm speechless 😳

(^^ and everything Caprinihahaha says)

Presumabley the 16 yrold neither has aspd or a child with aspd or a career working with kids with this diagnosis. I expect there are plenty of us adults here with asd or a dc or 2 with it or specialise working with kids who have it.

We are also suggesting it might be a possibility to broaden the ops mind alittle due to her judgement of this child not suggesting she go tell her friend this is what her kid has, unlike said 16 yrold.

Many many parents/adults recieve this diagnosis for themselces or their kids after having asked on places like this. It's often the starting point for many so suggesting it maybe is pretty standard and not the same as claiming it definately is.

Youarenotkiddingme

I think posters are mostly saying 'you can't diagnose x when the behaviours could just as easily point to y' rather than diagnosing.
And none of the posters are proposing speaking to the mother so pretty different in terms of potential upfuckery

I think you are in a very difficult position and unfortunately, all you can do is support your friend and wait until she asks... if the conversation comes up, you could possibly steer it, gently suggesting that perhaps on occasion, you have found talking things through with professionals to be useful.