Friend with 'really difficult' child needing therapy and I can't bring myself to tell her

[DoTheRightThang99]

Help! Advice needed!

I have a dear friend (who lives in Germany) whom I've known for >20 years who, at 38, had a much-desired little girl. The couple have always been anxious parents and the dad (sometimes!) gets stressed out really easily but is otherwise really laid back and great fun. The little girl is now 9 years' old. The family is professional and well off and the mother does not work.
Over the last 5 years, I have been increasingly reluctant to visit my friend as her daughter is really 'difficult'.
At first I thought there was something wrong with the child, then I thought it was just terrible parenting (since they seemed to take action which exacerbated the issue), but now I am beginning to realise that there is something seriously wrong with the child and the parents are not dealing with it well.
The child seems to be incredibly spoilt and to have very little regard for the feelings of others, poor social skills and displays extremely narcissistic (and often rude) behaviour, whilst at the same time, showing signs of considerable anxiety in situations which, for her age, should be quite ordinary (e.g. staying over at a friend's house) or being asked to help wrap a surprise present for her mum's birthday.
The little girl's behaviour is really upsetting for both parents, but the mother tries to logicalise it away and constantly tries to placate her increasingly despotic daughter. I have to bite my tongue and be really careful as there is absolutely NO WAY my own children would get away with a fraction of what this increasingly manipulative and down-right nasty girl does. It is shocking and yet goes completely unchecked.

Saying something to her mum
In mentioning the situation to others, many have suggested that it is none of my business and that, in saying something to her mother, I risked losing someone who is a very dear friend for me.
(I once had the misfortune - when the child was just a toddler - to mention that putting orange juice in a Tippy Cup for the girl to sip all day was a bad idea (from a dental perspective) and that I was always careful to only give water in these cups for my own children. I suffered almost 2 days of slightly stand-off-ish silent treatment from the mother, before it was mentioned and I found myself apologising for having said anything!)
It has also placed considerable strain on my friend's relationship with her mother, who she is very close to emotionally (though not geographically, sadly). She has often fallen out with her mother and I believe has collapsed criticism of her daughter as criticism of herself.

My own children (now teenagers) do not like the little girl and request to be absent when she is a guest in our home and have not wished to come with us when we have visited them in Germany.

I have just returned from a 4-day visit which was really fraught when the child was not getting her way. (I am treading on egg-shells around the girl at that point and try to have as little to do with her as possible. I busy myself with other things, like cooking etc. as I have to admit that I find her unpredictable, uncooperative and unpleasant to play with. She has always been this way.)

When describing the child's latest behaviour to my 16-yr old son (who is interested in psychology and mental disorders (he has weird friends!) and seems to have a good grasp of this stuff), he has suggested that, at best, the child has a quite significant anti-social disorder and I must speak out. (If I don't, he says, he is prepared to, for the child's sake.)
I've researched it a bit on the internet and the child's behaviour does seem to chime alarmingly with this. She is increasingly despotic, selfish, manipulative and narcissistic and my concern, on reading what this turns into, is that it is only going to get worse and their only and much-loved child will have, at best, a very difficult life and at worst, ... well, anyway!
The mother tries very hard to cope and is filled with unconditional love for her, inventing seemingly rational reasons for what is clearly 'abnormal' (not to mention unpleasant) behaviour.
My son explains that, for the child's sake, I must say something. The child clearly needs therapy and this will not end well.
I am terrified of lifting the lid on any of this, but at the same time, I fear what my friend will ask me, in 15 years' time, when the problem was so apparent to me now, why I stayed silent.

What can/should I do?
Should I say something?
How can I stay silent?
How can I brooch the subject?
(We recently met an English pediatrician mum in Germany (by chance in a coffee shop). I could ask her to say something, but then I fear that would be such a betrayal of my friendship with the girl's mother.)
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of situation?

Help!

My first ever experience of consulting others on Mumsnet.
How horrible! So much nastiness and abuse!
Not a safe space.

tellmyfriendsiminlove
flatpopcrapcrisps
Your lives must be really difficult and troubled for you to feel the need to lash out like that. I hope it made you feel better. You have my sympathy.
I was looking for advice and that's what you replied.

You telling her she shouldn't have orange juice and your children only ever had water would have come across as sanctimonious.

If she has got a serious personality disorder school will pick it up as they see her and deal with her every day, not your 16 year old who doesn't know her and is diagnosing her based on hearsay and google.

Step away from this one; it's none of your business.

Stating straight away that the little girl may need therapy is just not the kind of attitude that would be helpful. Maybe it's the parents who need support. Maybe the child needs an assessment. What kind of therapy are you on about anyway? It just doesn't work like that. Not in the real world.

Just be there for your friend. Listen to her if she wants to talk about her difficulties. Please don't say to your friend 'I think your daughter has a behaviour disorder and needs therapy'. That would be a terrible thing to say. Just listen to her if she needs to talk, she probably does. But she may not open up to you if she feels that you are judging her, her choices, her parenting skills and making really harsh judgement towards her daughter.

She sounds like a spoilt child with no boundaries. I know loads of kids like this. Nothing you can do really. From what you have said, nothing you suggest would be taken seriously so you perhaps need to remind yourself that it is 'not your circus, not your monkey'.

A safe space is not one where everyone agrees with you op. You have been really quite mean in your description of a little girl, and have also placed an undue amount of faith in the opinion of a child with no medical qualifications whatsoever who it also appears hasn't actually seen the little girl in years. If you were expecting a raft of replies agreeing with you, I think you were rather misguided.

My advice would be to offer support to your friend if she needs it but otherwise keep your beak out.

I think it sounds like your friends child very possibly has some sort of ASD, but you and your son sound incredibly judgemental and sanctimonious

To the majority that gave balanced and sensible advice, I am very grateful and I thank you sincerely. You have the perception and sensitivity to hear that I meant well.

Thanks especially to: Slightlydizzydaily, Nosquirrels, Ttbb, GrockleBocs, TanteRose, Cavender, MrsTerryPratchett
for your constructive and compassionate advice.

I didn't give specific examples of the girl's behaviour because I'm not looking for a view as to WHETHER she needs therapy but rather HOW I can broach the subject with the mother, so that she is able to communicate with someone about it and seek help as appropriate. She is quite isolated where she is, which is why I visited her.

Also, I am well aware my 16-yr old is not remotely qualified to make a diagnosis (and I did say, he has SUGGESTED something, not diagnosed it, which would - of course! - be ridiculous). He simply alerted me to the POSSIBLE NEED for an assessment, a need for some contact with a MH professional who could access the specialised services for such a diagnosis, POTENTIALLY with ongoing support and treatment - or none, as assessed by a professional.

On balance, I get that this is none of my business and no amount of being one of her best friends makes it OK for me to say something.

Each mother has a responsibility towards her child and friends cannot and do not take the place of family far away. I can see that her reaction to her family about it is one of survival and defence. Surviving your child is no way to go through parenthood.

I know that both parents really struggle with their child’s behaviour. I don’t know what I would do in that situation either, but I do think they need help.

But if she falls out with her own mother abroad about it, tough! That would appear also to be none of my business. (You can tell, I'm not comfortable with much of this!)

If there is a problem, it will manifest itself at school and the school will take action.

And we turn our back and we move on!

Thank you, Twofishfingers .

This is exactly what I was looking for.

Why are you listening to a 16 yo boy as though he is a trained clinical psychologist ?

Okay you addressed that - sorry .

Frankly you either have to broach it sensitively - and I would suggest SN not MH !! Ask your friend if she's okay, if DD is getting in okay at school etc ... suggest she maybe has her assessed.
As you seem like you're not going to stay out of her business then you have to just live with the possibility that she might kick off at you.

And we turn our back and move on!

Or you consider the possibility that this girls parents, teachers and medical advisors are more familiar with and invested in this "despotic, nasty, manipulative, shocking, abnormal, extremely narcissistic and anxious" girl's best interests than you are, and if they don't see the same problem that you do, perhaps there is good reason.

Then take a moment to ponder what kind of level of hubris would lead a teenager to think he has more insight into the situation than the aforementioned (to the degree that he will threaten "If you don't say something, I will,"), what kind of naïveté would lead a mother to indulge this hubris, and ask yourself whether your own family may have an undiagnosed inclination towards melodrama.

I think you should say something to your friend. If you were my friend I would want to know how you really felt about me and my child. If you've identified a real issue, you may prompt her to seek help. If you are just being judgemental then she will know that her house is not a 'safe space' with you there as a guest.

My son has ASD/PDA.
If I'd been approached by someone to tell me their unqualified, 16 yr old son thinks that at best he had an anti social personality disorder I would never speak to them again.

All your comments are negative, and it sounds like you blame the parents and are highlighting behaviour that you wouldn't put up with. To be honest, this is such a common attitude from people who don't understand ASD, and for that reason as well I would stay out of it, as it doesn't sound like you can offer any helpful advice to the family, and your input is likely to make them feel worse than they probably already are.

The idea that you personally have identified a problem is laughable. Leave well alone, you don't have the understanding or knowledge to be able to approach this in a helpful way, and I'm saying that from experience!

Yes, definitely turn your back and move on OP!

It's none of your business, and tbh nothing you've described (not that you've described much, just listed a load of horrible adjectives) sounds unlike any 9-year-old on a bad day. As others have said, if something is seriously wrong it will be picked up by a professional who has much more contact with this child (and a much less biased view of her) than you.

Practice your superior parenting abilities on your own children but please don't presume to tell other people how to parent theirs!

Ive re-read your post again, and am still horrified by your words and your tone. You are absolutely NO friend of this woman. I just hope shes got better support closer to her.

OP you've managed to conflate what sounds very much like ASD/PDA with mental health issues AND poor parenting, and then stuck on a whole load of insulting offensive labels. And when that's pointed out to you, you post sarcastic sanctimonious crap about lashing out and feeling sorry. How disingenuous.

Tell your friend how you feel about her daughter, and her parenting. Give her your best top tips about how your kids would never behave like that. Then she can quite rightly see your startling ignorance, and bin you off, and her life and that of her daughter will be all the better for it.

OP, you're not the first person to have spotted something might be wrong before the parents have, and you won't be the last.

Schools pick it up and the parents will have to cooperate with any treatment and parenting plans. Don't say anything, your friend will need all the help she can get over the next few years.

FWIW, a lot of people think horrible children are down to bad parents, but quite often there's a medical issue lurking. When it's addressed, the children do improve. Offer to help, nothing else.

OP it's not about turning your back, it's about knowing your place.

If your friend asks for help, or raises the subject you can say "what do the school think?" Or "do you think it's worth a trip to the GP?" Or "are you thinking of having her assessed?"

Open questions which allow her to discuss it without judgment.

It really isn't your place to say anything else, it would most likely be counterproductive and you'd lose your friend.

The child is 9yo, her mother will see the difference in her behaviour and other 9 yos. If the behaviour is as extreme as you say then it's highly unlikely that the parents haven't already discussed it with the school.

She doesn't need you to point out her child's behaviour, she needs you to be her friend.

Her Mum has clearly already raised the subject- why do you think you'd be any more successful?

IF you are sure there is something beyond being indulged and temperamental, the very most you can say is "she seems easily distressed. Have school ever suggested looking into why that might be?".

Difficult to say with regard to intervening. Sounds like the daughter and dad have high pyrrole. Search 'pyrrole disorder' or 'pyroluria' . If it resonates you could casually pass the information on maybe?

I think you need to focus on your own sons precocious behaviour. That’s simoly awful that he would attempt to diagnose a nine year olds mental health, based on a third party snap shot short visit and then threaten to tell the parents.

Honestly, I’d be really worried about him. That’s hugely narcissistic. Are you maybe projecting onto this girl because of the problems you’re facing with your own child?

I’d also look to yourself, to call this young child nasty is just awful, then accuse her of having a personality disorder.

The pair of you sound terrible. Sitting their bitching about and then diagnosing a little girl you hardly see. Absolutely shocking.

Nothing glaring is coming out of your post about this little girl. I think it's a combination of anxious parenting and personality to be honest.

It doesn't sound like a major disorder to me at all. Both my children might worry about a sleepover for example and I know my son would be uncooperative about wrapping a present a) because he's not good at it and b) because he hates being pulled away from what he's doing. It's not a particularly endearing traut of his but I wouldn't class it as is a disorder.

I think the problem is that you find the girl difficult - I dare say probably a lot more than the parents do - and it's coming between your friendship which is fair enough but you are already distant and you are already employing strategies to keep contact with her to a minimum.

What I do know is that children who are difficult often grow up to be fine which I've seen evidence of with my own eyes. This could be the case with her. No good will come of talking to your friend because you know deep down it is coming from your own personal feelings and not your concern for them. Not really. So I really think you need to grit your teeth on this one

Your 16 year old sounds like a narcissist, he clearly has delusions of grandeur regarding his ability to diagnose people.
I hope someone directs your difficult child to therapy.

^^ THIS ENTIRELY! Fantastically well-put.

Haha if my sixteen year old had had the temerity to suggest that a child that he has heard about second hand had some sort of MH disorder that I should raise with the child's parents or he would. I would be handing him his arse on a plate and wondering where I had gone wrong. It sounds like you have your own problem child you should be sorting rather than passing judgement on someone who you pretend to call a friend.