9yr dd got problem I need help identifying what it is

[Lovelemons]

Dd is 9 and has always been challenging emotionally but recently I'm seeing disturbing signs. Her young cousin is seriously sick with life threatening condition and my dd told her younger brother that the cousin had died, he was obvs upset.

Recently her grandad has had a heart attack and is seriously unwell on life support. When she received this news from dp who was very upset dd just pretended to cry but was keen to go back to school. So we took her back in. She told her classmates that her grandad had died which she knows is not true. She doesn't ask after her granddad or sick cousin. They are based overseas I don't know if that's relevant.

Other general causes for concern are that she tells lies all the time. Can be / is extremely defiant. She steals from her brother (money from his box, sweets that are his). Generally has a low levels of empathy.

She is getting on well at school, loves her baby sister, and does show some empathy ie. when I was crying yesterday about her grandad she comforted me.

Until the recent incidents re her extended family I just hoped that the other signs are just her personality but now I'm Worried it is a sign of MH disorder, or a personality disorder perhaps.

Anyway - if anyone has any advice I would really welcome it.

Where do I turn in terms of medical assessment?

I just hope I can help her and support her while she is young and if she needs therapy I want to do my best to get it sooner to rather than later.

Thanks for reading.

Have you spoken to her teacher?

The go can refer her to get an assessment.

Is she being bullied, and this is how she is reacting against it?

I've never outright asked her teacher if they think there's something wrong with her. I've had reason to chat to them on a few occasions as she can hang around on her own at play times rather than joining in with games that she doesn't want to okay - mending she has felt lonely a few times. But this has been resolved. She hasn't actually been bullied.

Who would a gp refer her to? Would it be a NHS child psychologist? We are not loaded with money but if I had to pay for her to be seen privately too I would do this.

It might be worth speaking to her teacher about your concerns. If you don't feel able to talk to her teacher could you talk to the person responsible for Senco at the school?

I would feel ok talking to her teacher. It's just that a lot of her behavior happens at home (stealing, telling lies, saying her cousin was dead). I guess there could be more things at school that I'm not aware of.

The GP is the best person to ask for a referral for a paediatric assessment.

Have a word with the teacher first and see what is said about her behaviour at school. It will help you get a clearer picture anyway.

She sounds very much like my niece at that age. Lies, petty theft, unable to see the consequences of certain actions, little empathy for 'big' issues, some attention seeking behaviour, some strange risks too. I must point out that she was also funny, bright, switched on, tenacious, creative etc. There were just little things which added up to a bit of a worry. I'll tell you what happened if you'd like to know but please don't assume that this is at all a prediction about your own lovely dd. My niece has high functioning autism. She was diagnosed late and actually, was very good at masking some things. Once she was diagnosed, there was help available and it made all the difference. It was a relief for her too. Turns out she knew she was a bit different and worried about why. Now she has the reassurance that it isn't her, it's just the autism and she's a happy, well-adjusted and lovely 15yo.

Like I say, not a prediction but I thought having mentioned my niece, I should probably explain that it was all resolved at the time and her parents' slight concerns were taken seriously.

In the kindest possible way, OP, I would avoid saying she has a problem that needs identifying, even if you only say it on here or to yourself. She seems to be showing behaviour that concerns you, but that's all you've got at this stage.

I would definitely wipe the notion of a personality disorder from your thoughts, at least until you've spoken to the GP.

I'm also wondering if she's being bullied or feels isolated at school - kids do make up lies habitually, and especially if they feel they require attention or sympathy. Children can self isolate because they don't feel "safe" or that they fit in - I know I did, and this was a pervasive pattern during my childhood and into adulthood.

It may be the lying is a form of "testing" appropriate boundaries and reactions - as in, watching how other people react to news; kids can be alarmingly inquisitive about reactions because by nature, as adults/parents, we tend to hide or sedate strong emotions (anger, sadness, grief, passion) around children, meaning they have to "learn" themselves. It's common for children to test that by using white lies.

You can see child mental health professionals at this age - and you shouldn't need to pay. It would be dependent on a variety of factors which tend to be judged by individual GP surgeries and local authorities so there is no guarantee she would be seen. I'd definitely start of with mentioning concerns to somebody you feel trustworthy at school - doesn't have to be a teacher. They may have more "evidence" of behavioural concerns, or they may have nothing to report. It's common for kids to behave differently at home than at school - home normally represents the safety net of pushing boundaries, school less so.

Speak to your GP too. MH teams will NOT diagnose a personality disorder at your DD age, though - they very seldom diagnose before 18 years old. It would be, at this stage, cognitive management of any issues they feel are serious enough to intervene on - and would likely be a course of talking therapy with your DD to ascertain whether she has any concerns that she feels more able to speak about (through appropriate questioning) in a therapeutic environment - child MH professionals are amazing at finding the correct questions to illicit information from. GP's are very unlikely to put DD on any course of medication, which I totally support. School wise, they may decide to monitor DD through observation by a TA or school nurse every so often, and monitor her performance alongside their observations.

Hope some of that helped. Oh, and plenty of children have behavioural quirks that are entirely unrelated to parenting or environment exposure - I too often see "Blame it on the parents" attitude and it irks me!

OP, I'm not sure what CAMHS is like in your area (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) but here your DD would not meet the threshold for their intervention, based on what you've said here.

There are indeed some great services out there for children and young people but they are overwhelmed with work and underfunded. Accessing them can take a long time as you need to build up a body of evidence in different settings.

In your position - and just to say I work in a school and support many parents with just these sorts of problems - I would first speak to your GP about your concerns and ask if it's possible for your DD to be referred for a paediatric assessment, then take it from there.

Sounds like she has very low self esteem/feels neglected or ignored, adults and children alike often tell lies for attention/to pull focus on them (especially sympathy provoking lies about injuries or deaths etc). Nobody would diagnose her with a personality disorder at this age, I'm a bit that you would jump to that conclusion to be honest.

The pretending to cry thing is a red herring, not everybody cries after a bereavement, and not all children will ask after a sick relative, some kids are very "in sight in mind", others aren't.

Have you actually sat down and asked her straight out why she feels the need to tell these lies and how does she feel about herself and the lies/stealing? You don't mention trying to address this with her at all.

I'd ask GP for a referral to Camhs. Just state that there are issues woth social communication, boundaries and empathy as well as lying about emotional issue. State you'd like an options appointment (it's with child psychologist) to identify what the next steps are.
Would be helpful to have something from school as back up so talking yo her teacher and a short letter with her observations will help.

Yes, talk to her

It may be attention seeking?

9 yr olds are discovering hiw big (and scary) the world is, it's a big age, with lots of change.

It is normal for kids to act oddly every now and then. My 10 yr old regresses when under stress/pressure for example.

She sounds like my teenage son at the same age.
His lies are for attention. I can imagine him turning a relative in hospital into something more.
He steals and is academically able. He worked out by y2 that at school you could be quite naughty and for him it was a game to see how much low level bad behaviour the teachers would allow. He's an absolute expert at flying under the radar at school.
He was assessed by CAMHS who promised help but were useless. He would downplay incidents that I told them about (eg when he stole my bank card and withdrew 1,000 pounds)
The lying really pisses me off too. I've tried compromises like pausing after his outlandish statements in the hope that he'll take them back and tell the truth (that's the dream) He gets very angry that his siblings and I are often distrustful of him because of the past but we need to protect ourselves.
It's such a shame as he can be very thoughtful and kind.

I have noticed my son is much more impulsive than his younger siblings. I assume this is why he ends up stealing (small stuff) , lying and losing his temper quickly.

Pressed post too soon.
I'm guessing that it's immaturity rather than a personality disorder. (I was convinced ADD or ODD)

The problem with going to the GP and saying she has a problem with social communication, boundaries and empathy is that it implies there has already been an assessment and these traits have been found. The GP is likely to ask for examples of behaviour leading to the OP making these assumptions, so it would be far better to bring a list of thing she does - just as in the OP, so that all options for the reasons behind the behaviour can be explored.

CAMHS may be an option, but as I said in my pp, it is a very over-stretched and under-funded service (as well as not being the solution to all behaviour issues), so it would be best to ask for a paediatric assessment as it's more general and doesn't focus solely on mental health.

Well that's exactly what I did rhonda the GP asked for examples, asked schools opinion and referred to Camhs.

And I listed those 3 things because they are the three main concerns the OP had

Thanks for all the replies.

Permetstu - thanks for recounting the experience with your niece. I have wondered about autism many times but when reading up on it I often saw lack of imagination / creativity as a sign and my daughter is amazingly creative, imaginative. She actually is very good socially in many ways, so this moved my concerns away from autism at the time. So your niece's experience is interesting to hear about.

Rhonda/Rachelzoe - I totally get where you are coming from. I guess thoughts of personality disorder stem from my father's diagnosis of BPD and my mother's NPD. I realise she would not be given a diagnosis of PD due to age. I will speak to her teacher, and also ask my doctor for a paediatric assessment with a list of examples of her behaviour. I don't 'want' a diagnosis of any sort of condition, but equally, I want to help her.

missybct - thank you for your post. I beat myself up endlessly about what I've done wrong. Is she like this because of my parenting? I have no family support and my husband worked overseas while she was between 1 and 5 years old and quite frankly it was a struggle. I was working and studying and wasn't good at juggling it all. I became the shouty mother I never wanted to be. Which brings me on to rachelzoe's point. Perhaps she just has low self esteem and didn't get enough attention over her formulative years so this is a backlash from that.

I have talked to her about it. Saying her cousin was dead she denied vehemently. Stealing / telling lies she denies (unless confronted with evidence in which case she gets upset and cries as she is worried about the trouble she will get into). I can't bring myself to talk to her about what she said about her granddad yet. While he is in critical condition it is too emotionally raw.
In terms of her defiance and horrible temper she just says that something 'goes off in her brain' and she can't help the way she acts. She also says that she is different from other children and I don't understand her. Which makes me think of Permetstu's post.

Just wanted to add that while talking to her about her granddad we were emphatic about telling her that it is ok not to cry, some people just feel sad on the inside and that is OK. When she continued the acting cry and we calmly said again it's ok not to do that, she got angry that we didn't believe she was genuinely crying.

youarent, you didn't mention anything in your post about going to your own GP about issues you had.

You just suggested that the OP should ask for a referral to CAMHS, despite there not being at this stage any indication of a mild to moderate mental health problem, which is CAMHS' remit.

Camhs deals with more than MH here. It does all the asd, ADHD etc too. I hadn't realised when making a suggestion about a route I needed to back it up with stating that's the route I took and my sons diagnosis too

OP asked for advice, I suggested a route.

Lovel I'm very careful not to internet diagnose from a snapshot of someone's life on the Internet. However you've noted perms post. I suggested a route - which is the one I went down with DS. He too has HFA. He will often act emotionally how he thinks he should rather than his true feelings because he doesn't yet have that emotional level of understanding. Girls are often far better at reacting 'social correctly' through learning behaviour.
Ultimately if you think your DD needs support whether there's a diagnosis or not your right to seek help to get her needs met.

That's unusual for CAMHS to work with children with ADHD and ASD in addition to mental health. Here children with those diagnoses are under the care of specialist paediatricians and nurse teams. So your CAMHS service must be even more overworked than most.

No one asked you about your son's diagnosis, btw

Camhs are the service who diagnose here. There is no post diagnosis support through Camhs. They just have the clinical pychologists who do the ADOS and ADI. It's fairly standard throughout the UK. Paediatricians generally don't do the diagnosis anymore.