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my poor cockerel...

34 replies

SunnyBaudelaire · 16/02/2015 11:40

...a shiny handsome boy with a nice big comb and tail feathers the same metallic green as a Fiat Brava, who looks after his wives so well, has been attacked by a red kite.
His comb is now hanging off to the side, there is blood and scabs in the place where it was ripped from. He also cannot open one eye, and has lost his spurs. He seems to be in pain.
However he is still crowing and perching, and it is the third day.
Should I euthanize?

OP posts:
SunshineAndShadows · 17/02/2015 22:39

Right jugular is bigger than the left - an anatomical quirk Smile
Yes any bird can get bumble foot - it's basically just an infection brought about by abrasions to the bottom of the foot.

For those interested in euthanasia of backyard poultry the Humane Slaughter Association have some guidance www.hsa.org.uk/faqs/industry#n7

SunshineAndShadows · 17/02/2015 22:44

View I'm disparaging because I wouldn't dream of offering an opinion on french grammar or navigation at sea because these are areas that I know absolutely nothing about, so it's frustrating for me to see an uninformed opinion, which if followed is likely to result in animal cruelty. The consequences of uninformed opinion can be significant.
I'd be happy to dig out some references. Smile

Mrsmorton · 17/02/2015 22:45

Can you prevent it (bumblefoot) or is it a fact of bird life?

Are our right jugulars bigger? I'm a dentist and I think I should know that but then I don't euthanise people tempted sometimes tho

Thanks Smile

SunshineAndShadows · 17/02/2015 23:11

No idea about human beans I'm afraid! Yes you can prevent bumble foot hang on

SunshineAndShadows · 17/02/2015 23:17

Right some resources below. I'm off now. Sorry crap at links

General chicken
www.bva-awf.org.uk/sites/bva-awf.org.uk/files/user/keeping_pet_chickens.pdf

Animal welfare
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69394/pb12460-dutytocare-080312.pdf

Fish pain
www.springer.com/about+springer/media/springer+select?SGWID=0-11001-6-1467854-0

Bird pain
www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ufaw/aw/1992/00000001/00000004/art00002

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/691129.stm

Chicken vet stuff
www.chippingnortonvets.co.uk/modules/downloadspl2/files/Backyard%20Poultry%20review%20JSAP.pdf

Bumble foot
Prevention involves ensuring they aren't standing on rough ground which causes micro-abrasions and allows bacteria to enter e.g gravel, concrete or rough wood may all cause trauma so natural floorings are better.
m.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-treat-chicken-foot-sores.html

Viewofthehills · 17/02/2015 23:54

Sunshine- I appreciate that the neuronal pathways for nociception are the same in most animals. I wasn't clear, but it is the higher centres of the brain that are more developed in humans and other mammals which affects the psychological and emotional aspects of pain. I take your point that underestimating pain perception has and continues to cause unnecessary suffering. Pain relief in babies was under prescribed in babies for decades for example as they "wouldn't remember anyway". I am not saying it is acceptable to let any animal suffer.
I worry about commercial slaughtering and think that probably how ever 'high welfare' an animal was reared that might fall apart when it is waiting in panic to be slaughtered. Thus I suspect that most back yard hens have a superior quality of life and that we should be improving commercial conditions as a priority. But- a lot of people take on ex- commercial birds. Some of them are pretty sick and need loads of TLC rather than expert medical care. Would it be better that they are not rehomed, but just euthanized if the people re homing can't afford vet fees? Bearing in mind that casually wringing a birds neck and throwing it on a heap of dead birds seemed to be the preferred method when Hugh Fearnley- Whittingstall ran a programme on chicken farming a few years ago?

Unfortunately, where I live, taking a single sick chicken to the vet would be likely to be a waste of time. I speak having taken my daughters lizard to the vet. It was declared in perfect health and was dead by the next morning. When I had a polecat attack and had injured as well as dead birds I was extremely upset and the vet who gave me antibiotics and disinfectant to use for them was helpful, however.
In the absence of qualified help, I have taken quite a lot of trouble to inform myself as to poultry care I can carry out myself. I treat against parasites, worm them, make sure they have plenty of good food and fresh water, protect against predators, treat wounds including watching out for infection, treat scaly leg and put Vaseline on their combs when it is frosty. 15 hens have a field to roam in and live in chicken heaven compared to any commercial venture.

I have read your article on euthanasia- done carefully on small numbers of birds it seems to say, not that it is ideal, but that it is acceptable.

SunshineAndShadows · 18/02/2015 10:43

No View it does not say acceptable. It says "However the HSA has reservations about both methods. In the case of neck dislocation, it is difficult to consistently achieve an immediate loss of consciousness. Similarly, decapitated birds may continue to show brain activity for up to 30 seconds after the cut is applied. As such, there is potential for distress, pain and suffering. The HSA recommends that neck dislocation should only be used in emergencies or for very small numbers of birds where no better method is available."

I would suggest that as all vets in the UK will perform euthanasia and it is therefore 'available' and as its recognised that cervical dislocation may to cause pain and suffering that cervical dislocation should not be assumed to be humane as a PP suggested or used as a first-line approach, but only in extremis. I'm afraid I can't speak for Hugh-Fearnley Whittingstall but I'd tend to place the advice of the HSA above his.

BTW I have a colleague involved in battery chicken de-populations, and yes they take them to the vet if euthanasia is indicated. But if slaughtering birds on a regular basis, an alternative would be to attend a HSA humane slaughter training day to learn correct techniques or to purchase a small stunner for domestic slaughter. Again both of these options are suggested on the link I posted and preferred to untrained neck wringing.

There are plenty of exotics vets out there though you may have to travel a bit further, just as you might to find an equine vet if you had a pony. But this is your responsibility as a pet owner. Owning exotic pets isn't a right, and it's important to ensure you can manage them properly before you do. There are a list of exotics vets available here www.bvzs.org/images/uploads/BVZS_Specialist_list_2015.pdf

In terms of the emotional component of pain - no one knows how pain is 'felt' even within the human species we have differing experiences of pain between individuals. But if animals are displaying behavioural responses to pain, physiological responses to pain and selecting analgesic drugs when painful conditions are inflicted upon them then I'm not sure what the basis is for suggesting that they don't feel pain? We do know that all vertebrate animals and likely some crustaceans and Cephalopoda are sentient and have the capacity to feel emotional states including pain so I'm not sure what you mean by higher centres being more developed? Or what you are basing this on? Emotions originate from the primitive part brain not higher centres as emotions such as fear and pain are essential in survival, and so whilst we cannot be certain that the experience is identical for every animal (in much the same way that I can't know that you feel pain in the same way as me), I'm still not seeing any justification for the withholding of pain relief for a severely injured bird.

Mrsmorton · 18/02/2015 11:14

Sunshine, when you talk about the pain response I'm interested as I was involved in an horrific RTA where a car collided with the horse trailer I was towing. The horse inside suffered catastrophic limb injuries and just stood there. He took a polo mint from someone whilst the vet was en route to euthanise him. What's that all about?

I was screaming in agony inhaling nitrous oxide but he was just standing there with his leg dangling.

The saddest day of my life...

There were two vets in the queue behind us and they were wonderful Altho they had no drugs with them, they helped the police manage the scene. I've loved vets ever since.

SunshineAndShadows · 18/02/2015 18:11

That sounds hideous Mrs and its a really good example of why we can't judge pain in animals by human standards. Horses, rabbits, birds and many other prey species have evolved not to display signs of pain. This doesn't mean that they don't feel pain, but in the wild their chances of survival are increased by not displaying weaknesses

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