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Benefits of extended harnessing vs booster

16 replies

Liopleurodon · 14/06/2010 16:45

DD (5.5yrs) is 5 point harnessed in a Britax Elite. She is 15/16kgs now and still fits the Elite very well. She is happy and comfortable in it. What are the benefits (if any) of her being in a harness with her current age and weight?
Personally, I feel it is safer for her to be harness in rather than sitting in a booster seat. I think of racing car drivers and their 5 point harnesses. Her other seat (DH's car) is an Evolva 123, she is getting near the weight limit of the harness in this seat. This concerns me...should I be or am I just keeping her harnessed for no reason?
Many thanks.

OP posts:
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nicm · 14/06/2010 21:15

hi it is safer to stay in a 5 point harness for as long as possible to the highest weight, ie 18kgs or 25kgs if the seat allows it. in america you can buy seats harnessed to 80lbs although they aren't available here-the highest is the elite afaik. if you google 5 point harness v seat belt lots of info comes up.

PussinJimmyChoos · 14/06/2010 21:23

I'm the same as you. I've got DS (just over 18kgs) in a Britax 2 way Elite which 5 point harnesses up to 25kgs

The Elite you have an the Evolva 123 both harness up to 18kgs so there are no worries for your DD up until then

Beyond that, you can either go into a high back booster, or get the 2 way Elite

Keep an high on the height of the straps though - seeing as shes 5.5ys, she may not be 18kgs but she maybe quite tall

smokinaces · 14/06/2010 21:27

My DS is going to be 4 in August - and is the only one of his friends still in a harness. Everyone has moved onto HBB already.

He is nearly 19kg, and on the highest setting height wise, and only probably got 6 months left in it before being too tall. Both of us (me and him) prefer him harnessed, but he is sooooooo tall I wont get a choice soon. Believe me, if I did he'd be harnessed way up to 6.

smokinaces · 14/06/2010 21:28

Forgot to say he's in an Elite, hence still being in it past 18kg

PussinJimmyChoos · 14/06/2010 21:31

eye not high!

Liopleurodon · 14/06/2010 22:21

DD isn't overly tall...about 25th percentile. She doesn't grow very fast! I need to check the straps to see how much longer she'll be ok in it.

With the Evolva, I might just move put that out of action for a while and transfer the ELite between the two cars. It is easy to install. DS will be getting a 2-way Elite fairly shortly.

I'm forever explaining to people that the Elite was not that expensive...just about 3 tanks of petrol! I do find myself justifying why I still have DD in a harness and DS rearfacing- he is only 9 months!

DD is beginning to get comments at school from her friends about being in a 'baby seat'. She just tells them it is safer for her and leaves it at that.

OP posts:
smokinaces · 15/06/2010 19:03

My first Elite was only £80. Sadly theyare over £200 now

Adventuredad · 20/06/2010 15:17

Please don't give out incorrect advice based on myths. Contrary to popular opinion it's not any safer to keep older children, 4 and up, harnessed forward facing. This is a common car seat myth especially common in US. Extremely short kids may have an issue finding a good belt fit at age 4 although this is not common.

Weakness of keeping older children harnessed is that the enormous forces in a collision are absorbed by shoulders/neck/head. Parents do ironically believe this to be the greatest strength.

Sweden, widely considered 30 years age in car seat safety, advice against keeping any children 4 and up harnessed forward facing. Kids in sWeden go straight from rar facing around age 4 to high back boosters.

While some may shrug this off as incorrect one should be careful with underestimating the Swedish researchers. Swedes have been rear facing kids since 1965 and hav a tremendous amount of experience in this field. Research is one thing, how does this work in real life? Unbelievably well.

Sweden basically has zero fatalities in age 0-6 years using Rf seats and then high back boosters. Seats with higher harness limits are available in US but they are not any safer. That most parents believe so is another story, car seat safety in US is horrible.

nicm · 21/06/2010 17:20

AD if that is the case then why do racing drivers, etc use 5 point harnesses if a seat belt is better?

Liopleurodon · 22/06/2010 09:27

I'm now confused.
DDs friends are in high backed boosters, some on booster cushions. They have their seat belts tucked under their arms, they loll about in their seats, they can twist and turn about... this is a safety issue. If a child is able to do this in a booster then it can't be as safe as being in a harness.
I feel that a harness restricts her moving about so much, keeps her more securely in the seat and will offer better protection in a crash. I feel the harness is less likely to be used incorrectly than a booster seat.
Why then are seats in the US sold to harness 65 or sometimes 80lbs?
AD- I trust your opinions very much, I've seen your posts on other sites, but this has left me confused.

OP posts:
Tangle · 22/06/2010 10:09

I can't answer for AD and I'm interested to see what he has to say - but in the meantime this is my take on the situation.

A 5 point harness in a RF seat is a Good Thing as, as Liopleurodon says, it keeps the child where they're supposed to be so that they are as safe as possible in the event of a heavy impact.

A 5 point harness in a FF seat is a Bad Thing for a young child, as:

  • The head of a young child is proportionally very heavy
  • The spine in a young child's neck is more flexible
  • Restraining the shoulders places means if the head is thrown forward in a heavy frontal impact, all of that energy must be contained by the neck. In a young child, the flexibility awarded by young joints means that the spinal cord can wind up taking the strain...

So for a young child I can see an argument that says a 3-point seatbelt is safer in a forward facing seat than a 5 point harness would be - the extra motion it gives allows the body to dissipate some of the energy, giving the neck some protection. Its the same logic that lead to the the Kiddy Infinity Pro car seat. I do think this is where great care needs to be taken, though, to make sure that the child is of an appropriate height and weight to be safe in a 3 point seatbelt, and that the child understands why wriggling around too much could be dangerous (easier said than done, I know). They will be thrown around more in the car with a 3 point harness - its a trade off between allowing the energy of a collision to be spread over much of their body (throwing it around) and allowing a weak point in their body to absorb most of the energy. Maybe this is the point where statistics need to go beyond straight mortality - do more Swedish children come away from accidents alive but with injuries to other parts of their bodies?

(I also think there are issues around whether booster cushions are safe at all - especially when not IsoFIX - and whether IsoFIX makes high back boosters safer as well (ignoring correct fitting) but I haven't had to think about those enough to have a thought out opinion yet!)

A racing car driver is in a bit of a different circumstance - the speeds and forces involved are much higher (meaning they're more likely to be thrown out of the car altogether if they're not held in very securely), and they have a mature skeletal structure in the neck. There is also a huge amount of design that goes into the seat and the cockpit of a racing car to make it as safe as possible, not all of which can be transferred into family cars and/or children's car seats. What is safest for a racing car driver is not necessarily safest for an ordinary motorist - especially not a young one.

Why are seats sold in the US that harness to higher weights? I don't know. Why does the UK government still state on most of their literature that "Group 1 seats are forward facing"? I don't know. A lot of crash tests (including the European standard which the UK uses) do not test for force on the neck - in which case restraining the child's body so it can't be flung around becomes perceived as beneficial (especially when companies like Which? then use the same basis for a test, perform it at higher speeds and publish comparative results). 5-point harnesses are perceived as safer by parents, so they ask for them and manufacturers see a market and make the seats. Are they actually safer? According to some tests, probably they are. According to standards that consider stress on the neck? I don't think they can be.

So I don't know if any of that makes sense, or if any of that is correct! But its certainly making me think - which I'm glad about as DD will be outgrowing her (RF ) Grp1 seat soon and we need to decide what to get her next

Liopleurodon · 22/06/2010 10:18

Tangle- thanks for your post.
Out of interest, what are you erring on the side of getting for your DD once she has outgrown the RF group 1 seat?
DS will be going into a Two- Way Elite soon, he is a very different build to his sister who lasted yonks rear facing in her Britax First Class!

Should I just put her in a HBB or keep her in the Elite and harnessed? Decisions, decisions...and not one to be taken lightly.

Off to google links now.

OP posts:
Tangle · 22/06/2010 10:46

I don't know. She's currently about 16kg and in a BeSafe IziKid. I think the choice will be RF in a TWE or FF in a high back booster. But I'm not sure.

To be honest I had been vaguely thinking that extended harnessing was a Good Thing - and this thread has really made me re-evaluate how situation specific that assumption is. Which is good !

kbaby · 22/06/2010 19:56

Why is it so confusing?? I got DS a cybex pallas car seat when he needed a new car seat. I thought that he was too old to be safe in a 5 point harness but not quite safe enough in a 3 point seatbelt and the cushion would help with any impact.
I dont know if it was the right decision or not.

nicm · 24/06/2010 23:44

www.kyledavidmiller.org/car-seat-safety-5-point-harness-is-safest.html

tangle i found this from a link form another site and thought you might like to read it. it is so hard to know what to do isn't it. i always thought car seats were easy and then i had ds! i knew i had read about it somewhere before but couldn't remember what site.

Tangle · 28/06/2010 11:43

nicm - thanks for the link . I agree with lots of what they say. However, they don't seem to address the issue of forces on the neck at all. It does seem to be a balancing act - do you restrain the child's body to minimise the risk of impact with hard objects in the car and accept increased risk of damage to the neck, or do you use a 3 point seat belt such that the forces from the head are spread along the entire spine and risk impact from the seatbelt and/or injuries from impact with hard objects.

  • I know that in a young child (about 1 yr old) the neck has too much flexibility and so the spinal cord winds up very exposed to damage.
  • I know that in an adult the spinal column has much less flexibility, so the spinal cord is much better protected.
  • I don't know what sort of age most people stiffen up enough that the risk of spinal cord damage from hyper extension of the neck is substantially reduced.

Until/unless I know the answer to that question I'm going to be loathe to put DD in a FF car seat with a 5 point harness. At the moment I think my preference would be to keep her RF as long as I can, and hope there's more information available before I have to decide what to do next !

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