How do people feel about this campaign to make kids under 4 sit rear facing?

[RareTiger]

Don't get me wrong I understand it's safer, but I also know sometimes it's impractical, for mine there are both fast growers and big kids my just turn 3 year old has been in a high backed booster seat for over 6 months now she 17kg wears 4-5 going into 5-6 clothes, but if the law changed I woundnt be able to use the car for her, now for preschool and shopping? fine a incontinence at times but I would just walk or get the bus I do half the time anyway, but for her speech therapy I would have to stop it the travel would mean if something even a bus is 10mins late I don't get home for my son after school or we don't get to speech therapy (3 hour bus, 2.5 hour train ride one way)
I like the current rules both sets, both sets are for different types of car seats why change something that works?
Even with my son we couldn't find a size 0+ to fit in are car we were struggling to fit him in the size 0 at 6 months old he was the size of a 18month old we had no choice but buy a size 1 forward face, he's now 5 been in a high back booster for 2 years

Since my children have been forward facing (one switched at 6, one at 7) they have complained a lot about their legs being less comfortable without anywhere to put them.

Actually everyone would be safer but it's unnatural and makes lots of people queasy.
If the passenger seat was backwards it would block the drivers view.

If you ever go on a fairly empty train few people will opt to sit backwards.
And flights we'd all be safer backwards too Same with buses but remember the queasy thing.

Have you seen the crash tested knee guard 4 kids? We have one for our recently turned leggy 7 year old and he finds it very comfortable.

I’ve read through the whole thread and it’s really interesting to see some great discussions about risk and potential risk.

I’m a huge advocate for rear facing for as long as possible. My husband and I researched a lot around car seats before we invested in the seats we chose. Our 7 year old is still rear facing, and never complains about it. I thought we would have some issues when we bought a HBB for our second car, initially for shorter journeys on 20mph roads, but he honestly isn’t bothered. We often do a >300 mile journey, and stop at least once for a toilet visit and for us all to stretch our legs. I also appreciate that I have a child who isn’t resistant to rear facing, isn’t car sick, etc. For those who are concerned about not being able to see their child if they are rear facing, a simple car seat mirror aids this, and there are even ones available now with an added light so that you can see them in the dark.

It makes me smile when I see other parents with ERF seats in their cars, but it’s few and far between, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone rear facing their school aged child in real life. Certainly I’m not aware of any child in his school who is still facing.

Dedicated ERF seats are certainly becoming more financially affordable, and when they can in some cases last until a child is 6-7 years old, they can be a great investment. Even more so if you have more than one child and so can pass them down. Unfortunately some of the less expensive ones can be quite bulky and that seems to put a lot of people off ERF as they can’t imagine how it would fit in their car and provide enough leg room for their front seat passenger. I guess I’m lucky in that I was able to purchase a car around my son’s car seat (as well as all of the other stuff that small people tend to need). I only hope that with time, some of the less bulky seats reduce in price and they can be a more affordable option for more parents.

I appreciate that not everyone will want to rear face their child as long as I have. @BertieBotts has posted some great information above about the importance of continuing to rear face beyond the current legal limit here in the UK. 9kg in an R44 seat, or 15 months in an R129 is woefully inadequate and puts children this young at significant risk. I’d love it if one of the big ERF seat manufacturers were able to work with a couple of influencer mums on social media. It makes me so sad when I see images of children under 2 in forward facing seats with big coats on and straps falling off their shoulders. Maybe if one or two of them could look to ERF then it would start to become more the norm than an exception.

It's not really true that RF seats are hugely more expensive than FF seats if you're comparing like with like.

For example the cheapest FF seats start at about £60, but Halfords also have a RF seat up to 105cm for £60 which quite often goes on offer for £54. I don't know how tall the shell on that is so can't say if it would really last to 105cm (around 4) but it might do.

You can get other basic RF seats up to 105cm by Joie or Graco for about £100-150. This is around a similar price to a basic or generic FF "123 type" seat (harness up to 105cm, then high back booster seat) which is fitted with isofix.

Also the many generic "all stages" models you find are around this price (and often advertise RF up to either 13kg or 105cm, though I am not keen on these.)

Then what I would think of as a good quality FF seat up to 105cm, (with or without booster conversion) costs about £200, sometimes on offer for £170ish, sometimes up to £250 depending on exact model.

Most of the popular good quality rotating seats are (similarly) around the £200-300 mark and these can do rear facing or forward facing.

There is a discrepancy once you get into the old what used to be "Group 2" weight band (15-25kg/100-125cm/~3-7 years) because there are barely any FF seats in this group and the one which is still available is in the "Generic FF seat" category so is about £100-150 depending on offers. (Joie Bold is no longer available).

There aren't any ERF seats up to 125cm which are comparable to this. There is just no market for it - you can't mass produce them in the same way, and supporting the size of a larger/older child is not as simple as moving up the shoulder straps, you have to secure the whole shell of the seat from flying around.

So then you have good quality ERF seats up to 125cm - which again are about £200-250. There are no FF seats in this category - the old Joie Bold arguably was, but is no longer sold.

Lastly you come into what I tend to think of as the high end luxury/niche category. £400+ (up to about £700 for the most expensive) and higher weight/height capacity.

On the RF side you have the Axkids, the Besafe, the Avionaut Sky and so on.

Forward facing - Cybex Anoris with the airbag.

Besafe have one which rotates up to this weight and can do RF or FF but costs about £700 once you factor in the base, so definitely high end there.

Essentially, it doesn't make sense to compare a £400 luxury Axkid ERF seat with a £100 FF seat because you're not looking at the same category. At least compare the £100 FF seat to a £100 Graco RF seat.

Only 17kg? Mine is 15kg at 18 months

15kg at 18 months is two full percentile lines clear of the 99th percentile - so way off the top of the charts for weight. The average age for girls to hit 15kg is 3 years 6 months.

The just turned 3 year old being 17kg is above the 91st percentile for weight. The average age for girls to hit 17kg is 4 years 4 months.

I managed to rear face my daughter until 4 which I think is a good age. The UK is pretty lax in car seat laws, other countries are far more strict and it's much more normal to see rear facing x

@Needspaceforlego
But don't kids get queasy?

I think it’s great, much safer as kids younger than 4 are at much more of internal decapitation if forward facing during a crash.

Mine is very tall and managed fine until almost 6. I had to eventually get him a ff seat when he was close to his head poking out the top of the seat, which obviously wasn’t safe. he never had any issues with his legs and actually preferred being able to cross them while rear facing.

Can you fit two rear facing seats in though? I'm fairly open to it - we have a Joie 360 and my 4 year old often rear faces through choice - but my 6 year old is only now 18kg. Lots of people with two kids would need two rear facing seats for several years. I don't think our front passenger seat goes fully back with the Joie and therefore my husband would be unable to drive our (long, estate) car if we had two seats like that. Happy to be told otherwise.

@Sugarstranded we have 2 erf seats in our Kia Niro (not particularly big car) without any issues

With both front seats able to fully go back? Great if so.

Of course some do.
My friends pukey kid always sits middle of the back seat and helps the driver navigate lol, 'left bend' 'roundabout' Encouraging her to keep looking where she is going rear facing she'd be a complete nightmare.

While technically we'd all be safer rear facing, there are reasons why we don't. I don't believe the child car seat laws should be changed.

I think there are other things that could be done to make roads safer, periodic sight tests for all drivers.
Stop schools from insisting on dark coloured jackets and blazers. They might look smart but they don't help kids be seen.

I regularly pass a man dressed in dark stuff walking his black dog, the dog wears a light up collar, the collar nearly freaked me out the first time I saw it. It's the only bit of either of them you can see from any sort of distance.

That photo looks really ridiculous.

It would be an appalling mess if your children were wearing wellies or snowboots or even muddy shoes. And not all children wear the comfortable leggings or shorts every day that would make that sort of seating position comfortable.

A journey of more than ten minutes would result in a continuous chorus of complaints about being uncomfortable. I used to do nine hour trips with my DCs. I can't imagine the misery.

Plus, feet up on the back seat reduces the ability of the driver to use the rearview mirror.

It would be an appalling mess if your children were wearing wellies or snowboots or even muddy shoes.

Oh, come on. You take the muddy/snowy/whatever-covered shoes off and put them in the boot or on a bag in the footwell for the duration of the journey. It’s not rocket salad.

But how, at what point do they remove shoes?
That child looks quite big and heavy. Far too big to do the hip carry, remove shoes and place in the seat.

If its rainy and wet they can't really remove shoes before getting in the car? How do they get in the car without getting mud everywhere?

????? You’re joking, right?!

@Needspaceforlego open boot, sit child in boot with legs dangling out, remove boots, child either climbs through or carry them round to their seat.

Absolute no brainer for me. I did the research when DC were small and they were RF until 5/6.
If a law change saves lives, it can only be for the right thing to do, surely? It might be inconvenient for some but if you’re potentially saving your child from serious injury or death in a car accident, how can you argue?
And as for pps who argue that they drive safely… YOU may be the safest driver in the world, but that doesn’t stop some other idiot smashing into you. Just watch the crash detectives programme on tv and look at the stats - it’s shocking.

Exactly.

but even if it meant getting a bit of mud on the seats I would rather that than a severely injured child!

Yes, I had two children in the two Axkid seats, my daughter used hers until age 7.

I'm deadly serious how does a kid that size get into that carseat without getting either muck everywhere or taking their shoes / boots of outside the car and getting wet feet?

It’s great news hope it happens, it’s a bit too early though age 6 is better.

That sounds a huge faff for a marginal increase in safety.