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Car seat without isofix

25 replies

GreaterPlains · 06/05/2024 16:02

Need to buy another car seat for my ds for our campervan. The rear seats are a rock and roll bed that has been m1 crash tested and has 3 point seat belts but no isofix.

Ds is 27 months, 89cm height and weighs 15kg. He is currently in a Graco turn2me seat, which he fits in very comfortably.

I keep going round in circles looking at the different options as some of the group1/2/3 seats that are secured using the seat belt don't have great safety scores and then when I try and find something better scoring I find they are secured using isofix for group 1 and it's only when they are group2/3 that they use the seat belt.

I don't know if there is a decent group 1/2/3 seat option out there or if I should just buy a group 1 seat for now and then get a group2/3 high backed booster when he outgrows it.

If I go for a group 1 seat is the graco extend a good option or is there something better.

Any advice would be much appreciated as I am now more confused than when I started looking.

OP posts:
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Caspianberg · 06/05/2024 16:10

The Graco extend r129 is a good seatbelt only option. It will be very similar to your other one.
We had the older version for travel I just gave away and Ds still fitted it it at 4 years and 105cm

Caspianberg · 06/05/2024 16:12

And I would just get a high back booster later. They are much lighter so you don’t want to be stuck with a heavy car seat at 5-6-7 years in a camper an when you could move to a lighter weight high back booster which is easy to move

BertieBotts · 06/05/2024 16:14

Recaro Tian is what you want. It has isofix but it's only used in the HBB mode. Gets a good score for the harnessed mode. If you want forward facing.

Otherwise I would look at Graco Slimfit R129 / Joie Every Stage R129 - these are the same seat - it has a higher weight limit than the Extend, which you may need, and it allows him to be rear facing.

You could also look at the ERF seats like Axkid Move? They do need to tether but they can often tether to the seat they are on, apparently. I don't know much more about it than this, but any Axkid retailer would be able to advise.

ChickenMaths · 06/05/2024 16:17

We have a van with a similar set up and have a Maxi Cosi Tobi which works well, feels nice and sturdy.

BertieBotts · 06/05/2024 16:23

There is a potential issue with the Recaro if 15kg is an accurate weight, as the harness can only be used up to 18kg, and if he follows his line he might reach 18kg before age 3.5.

Joie have a FF one, the Elevate R129, which is belt fitted and can be used up to 105cm/21kg with the harness. That would be a better option than going to HBB too young, though I'm not hugely keen on it as a harnessed seat.

GreaterPlains · 06/05/2024 18:16

Thanks for all the advice so far.

He is very heavy. Average height but long in the body and very well built so follows 98th percentile for weight. I hadn't thought much about what age he would reach 18kg as I had just assumed he would move to a HBB seat at that point. Is that a problem if he is only 3 and a half? Does he still need a harness at this age? Does this mean I need to look for a seat that has a higher weight limit for the harness mode. Is it always done on weight as some car seat descriptions only mention height.

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maryberryslayers · 06/05/2024 18:33

He's got a while left yet until he makes out his current seat but is far, far too young to be safe in a hbb. His weight/height have no bearing on the strength of his bones to withstand force.

Personally I'd go to a local car seat installer and get them to fit a 36kg rear facing seat, they will find a safe tether point for you. If you tell me your county I can recommend a seller.

Alternatively you could get the Joie Stages R129 which harnesses to 22kg/105 cm and is fitted using just a seatbelt.

GreaterPlains · 06/05/2024 20:17

I understand that he is currently too young for a hbb but I was hoping to avoid buying too many car seats. I know that he currently needs to be in a harness but I am wondering if he would be ready to move to a hbb if he is 18kg when he is 3 and a half years old.

I like the idea of rear facing long term, but I am a little reluctant to get a seat that only rear faces as he has had some issues with car sickness when he rear faces and I don't know if this will continue to be a problem. I still rear face him when he's tired as if he sleeps he seems ok, but if it's the morning and he's just eaten it seems to make him sick very quickly. I do keep trying to persevere as I know it's safer but I find it difficult.

I wasn't sure about seats like the Joie every stage as the adac score didn't seem great. The Recaro tian and the maxi Cosi Tobi that have been suggested do seem to do slightly better but maybe I'm worrying too much about small differences in safety.

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BertieBotts · 06/05/2024 22:33

On his current weight centile (91st) he is likely to hit 18kg somewhere between 3 and 3.5 years old. 98th centile would be even younger - probably under 3 (around 34 months). If he's previously been on 98th and is now 91st, it could be that he is losing some of the baby chub as he gets more mobile or it could be that he is between the 91st/98th centile and moves up and down (this is normal).

Under 3 is an absolute no. You'll find nobody who argues for the safety of a child under 3 in a HBB. They definitely need to be in a 5 point harness. At 15kg he can legally use a HBB now, but this is not safe.

Just turned three - this is pretty young for a HBB, and most people would say too young. The majority of manufacturers put 3.5 as a minimum age for HBB use, some of them have age 4 as a minimum. Some experts would push for a higher age than 4, even. When I used to fit car seats, the store policy where I worked was age 3 minimum but I tended to find that the 3yos were still very wriggly and didn't look right in the HBB seats and I usually recommended a harness for them, even if they met the minimum weight of 15kg. The few 3yos who seemed OK were on the later end of 3, closer to age 4. I'd be really reluctant to recommend a HBB for a younger 3yo, unless it's a scenario like a 15 min taxi to a holiday destination and the alternative is no car seat at all. If you have the option to harness him longer, absolutely go for that.

Seats which are approved to the older safety standard R44 have set weight categories, so they go up to 18kg or 25kg.

There is one forward facing 25kg limit R44 seat - Maxi Cosi Beryl - but it's been discontinued and it's quite hard to find, it also wasn't cheap and it didn't get a very good ADAC/Which score. However, I do think this could work well for you if you can find it, because the frontal crash test score on it was really great for a FF seat. It was the side impact score where they marked it down, and this was because with the 7yo dummy, the head poked out of the top and it crashed into the side door of the test vehicle. Since weight is the issue rather than height, you probably wouldn't run into this problem, and you could stop using the seat once he reached the top of the seat shell by height. However, it doesn't convert into a HBB seat so you would have to buy another seat later.

The old Joie Every Stage (R44) and the Recaro Tian and the Maxi Cosi Tobi are all R44 seats. I do like the Maxi Cosi Tobi, and would recommend it if not for the weight limit issue, though again it doesn't convert to HBB. With the older, belt fitted seats you tend to see that the 123 seats (covering Group 1/2/3, so harness up to 18kg then booster) perform worse in comparison to the Group 1 only seats (up to 18kg, harnessed stage only). Recaro Tian is unusual in that it performs just as well as a Group 1 seat despite being a Group 1/2/3. I would personally not use the Joie Every Stage as a forward facing Group 1 seat as it got a very poor grade in this mode and Which? marked it as a don't buy for this reason.

There were quite a few rear facing R44 seats with the 25kg limit, though none of them are produced any more, because these are mainly made for the Nordic market and R44 is no longer legal to sell in the EU. So dwindling stock if any left for sale in the UK where it is still legal to sell them.

A weird wildcard here - you could get the Britax Multi-Tech 3: https://www.baby-2000.co.uk/britax/britax-multi-techbr-iii/

This one has a forward facing harness mode up to 18kg, and then if you did need to use it after 18kg but he's not old enough/mature enough for the HBB mode you can turn it rear facing and use up to 25kg. It might be a compromise to cope with the travel sickness/plan journeys around sleep times for the 6 months or so until he's a bit older? It can also be used as a forward facing HBB up to 25kg though I have heard people say that this is not ideal since it is a heavy seat. It's seatbelt fitted with tethers like the other 25kg ERF seats - the tethers would need to fit around the seat it's on so you might need to find out if you can get fitting support from the retailer or see if another ERF retailer would offer this. There are some videos on youtube.

The most up to date safety standard is R129 which is height based and the companies are allowed to set their own weight limits, not necessarily adhering to the set boundaries that R44 had. However, there is a hard limit of 105cm height for any seat which is based on that old 18kg weight category. With your son's current stats he is on 75th centile for height and you should be able to get to (just) 4 with a 105cm limit.

The Joie Every Stage R129 got a better score on ADAC compared with the older R44 every stage, but it doesn't have a forward facing harnessed mode. This seat is just rear facing up to 105cm (max 21kg) and then forward facing as a high backed booster from 100cm. (Graco Slimfit R129 is the same).

There aren't many R129 seatbelt fitted seats on the market yet, especially forward facing. Joie have the Elevate R129, which has a 21kg/105cm limit for the harnessed mode, Fortifi R129 (which is only available at Halfords) which has a 22kg/105cm limit on the harness.

Graco which are the "even more budget" arm of Joie have a few too - FlexiGrow which looks like the Fortifi, this is 22kg/105cm limit harness, and Eldura which looks similar to Elevate, this is 21.5kg/105cm limit harness.

None of these have been tested by ADAC as of yet - they do usually release a load of test results in May so you could try waiting a couple of weeks. The Fortifi/FlexiGrow looks very similar in design to the Every Stage, of which the R44 version did badly in forward facing mode, but that doesn't necessarily mean this new model would.

The Eldura/Elevate look more basic and more like the style of 1/2/3 seat which is basically a high back booster with a harness routed through it. This type of 1/2/3 seat has historically not done well at ADAC, though again that may not say anything about this newer one. One thing that is positive is that Joie HBBs and the Joie-made Graco HBBs have done well on ADAC in the past.

The Fortifi and FlexiGrow do seem a bit more substantial looking. The R129 crash test is more stringent than the old R44 one. But without a test result, it's really hard to say for sure.

If there are other brands which have FF, belt fitted R129 seats, I can't easily find them in the UK.

Then you have a lot of rear facing R129 seats (up to 125cm) as PP suggested.

Sorry this is so long and perhaps not very hopeful; there aren't a huge amount of good options to look at. I would encourage you not to bother looking at the ADAC scores of seats which are outside your criteria, there is no point comparing to seats that you can't use anyway. Rear facing is a simple way to gain safety but travel sickness is also a pain to deal with here.

image

Britax MULTI-TECH III - Baby 2000

Combining flexibility with safety, MULTI-TECH III offers your child maximum protection for longer. Suitable for children from 9kg to 25kg (approx. 9 months to

https://www.baby-2000.co.uk/britax/britax-multi-techbr-iii

GreaterPlains · 07/05/2024 12:38

@BertieBotts thanks so much for your detailed reply. There is a lot to think about. I think when I looked at many of the seats I just assumed they would last up until he was 4 (including the one he has) but I should really know better as he outgrew his baby carrier earlier than expected as well. It's very useful to know that I might need to look for a seat with a higher limit on the harness mode.

I had seen the joie fortifi you mentioned and was a bit unsure about how good it was as I couldn't find an adac score for it so it's good to know that there might be more test scores coming out in may as I can afford to wait a bit. We have some holidays planned for the summer so I'd like to get him something by June.

In the meantime I'll have a closer look at some of your other suggestions. I'm sort of reassured to hear that there aren't that many decent options available as I was a bit confused as to why I was finding it so difficult. Buying his infant carrier was much easier!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 07/05/2024 14:34

Oh yes good point - his seat in your main car is likely to be outgrown early too. For that it makes sense to replace it with a 25kg harness seat so you have the freedom to harness as long as you like. There are only 3 of these - Joie Bold, Cozy n Safe Hudson, and Enfasafe Event FX. They all need top tether, isofix and seatbelt. The i-size/R129 versions of them are limited to 105cm on the harness, so look for the R44 versions. You might want to buy that ASAP (you could store for later use) because again you have the issue that the R44 seats are being discontinued.

If you're more bothered by safety rating than being able to use the harness as long as possible, Britax Evolvafix/Advansafix Pro, or Silver Cross Balance i-size are both 105cm / 21.5kg limit on the harness and have a good safety rating. (The Silver Cross was tested as ABC Design Aspen). Again these need top tether and isofix so not suitable in your van but should work in your car.

BertieBotts · 07/05/2024 14:40

May 21st, the new ADAC results are due apparently. Not sure if that is too tight for your holiday.

GreaterPlains · 08/05/2024 19:34

@BertieBotts

May 21st should be fine.

Thanks for listing the seats with a 25kg harness. It does seem it might be best for me to get a r44 one as it should last him longer so I'll start thinking about that now.

In my recent car seat internet searches I have also come across seats by cybex which have an impact shield. The impact shields seem to go up to 21kg so not as long lasting as the 25kg harness seats, but they seem to do well in safety tests for a forward facing seat so am wondering if they are worth considering.

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BertieBotts · 08/05/2024 21:44

The results for the impact shields are a little bit misleading because if you look at overall trends with them and some other research on them, they have a higher abdominal load and higher chance of ejection than a 5 point harness seat, especially in rollovers or offset crashes (head on but not exactly straight, like if a car is slightly over the central line) but they do have better neck loads - and the dummies they use in the ADAC test are not very well optimised for abdominal loads. They do measure them, but not in the specific area that the impact shields tend to affect, if I understand correctly.

However they aren't bad seats - it all averages out and ends up that basically they are no better or worse than 5 point harnesses. Also, R129 had some updates to reflect the issues present with these seats particularly the ejection risk. So it could be that this is out of date. Cybex is basically the only high-end company making them, though. The other safety-focused brands don't seem to want to touch them.

The two which have the 21kg limit are the Pallas G i-size which uses isofix and top tether (which I think is an odd choice) and the limit on the shield is 105cm then it converts to booster. Or you have the Anoris T which is the airbag one which is up to 115cm and 21kg but it doesn't convert to booster, it also needs isofix.

The Anoris is certainly impressive but for the money and the amount of time it would last I can't see it being useful for you.

GreaterPlains · 09/05/2024 09:13

@BertieBotts

Thanks for explaining the impact shields a bit. I had not really come across them before. I think you are right that for me they are not going to be useful as won't last long enough to be worth the price so I'll focus on keeping ds in a harness for as long as possible.

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GreaterPlains · 09/05/2024 20:46

@BertieBotts

Is this the maxi Cosi beryl seat you mentioned?

www.simplybaby.co.uk/maxi-cosi-beryl-group-0-1-2-authentic-graphite.html

It is on the more expensive side and I would still need to buy a hbb later but it looks like it would work in both the camper and my car.

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BertieBotts · 09/05/2024 21:18

Yes, that's the one. You fit it with a base, which comes with it - the base can be either belt fitted or isofix fitted (not hugely obvious, but the isofix fitting is only allowed to be used up to 18kg). That does make it slightly easier to transfer between cars by not being a giant awkward thing.

I demoed that seat a lot and thought it was brilliant but it is niche, it's expensive by UK standards and not very good value as a follow on from an 18kg seat. However it might not be too bad if you're essentially doing the job of two seats with it? If you don't mind the 13kg rear facing limit, which will get a child under the 75th centile up to age 2 rear facing, then it is good value if used straight after the infant carrier.

It can be fiddly to get it on and off the base (tip: it's usually the recline angle having been changed before you took it off the base). But I really like the dual fitting method and the longer harness use.

IIRC the top harness height is fairly short - 34cm I think. I know it's the same as the Joie 360 Spin which is the same as the one you have currently. So do check how much space there is in the harness in your current seat. It fit my 5yo until he was about 110cm tall. It won't last as long as a proper 25kg seat, but very few people actually need the full capacity of a proper 25kg seat. It should get you past the fourth birthday at least.

jolenethea · 09/05/2024 22:50

I have this for grandparents non isofix car and it seems really robust. I wanted an R129 one as that seemed the most robust safety regulations at the time for non isofix (unsure if this has changed since!).

joiebaby.com/uk/everystage-r129-child-car-seat#color=35

GreaterPlains · 10/05/2024 20:35

@BertieBotts

I've watched a few videos on how to fit the maxi cosi beryl and I think it might be a good option for me. I like that the base has a leg prop as it feels safer and the way you secure it with the seat belt looks fairly straightforward so hopefully less chance of installing it incorrectly. Currently my ds is on the 3rd height setting out of 6 on the headrest of his spin seat. I had another look at his growth charts in the little red book and it looks like he will be over 4 by the time he reaches 110cm but more likely he will only be 3 and a half by the time he reaches 18kg so the beryl should give him at least 6 months more using a harness. I can also use it when he weighs too much for his current spin seat.

I don't know the adac scores for the Joie fortifi (which would be a cheaper choice for the van) or the Joie bold (which could replace the spin seat that he outgrows) so I could still wait to see if they get tested this May but it looks to me like the beryl is probably safer than either of these seats.

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DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 10/05/2024 20:41

Halfords often have lots of seats on display - go there seek advise, and fimialrise yourself. Then go home and do some more home work and decide which is best

We have the Josie 1/2/3 from some years ago as when we had our first GC, we wanted to fit the seat in the middle in our Mercedes GLS as IMO child is safer there - the seat not sure re exact model but came with a second seat for when GC was a baby and still using the seat today if required

BertieBotts · 11/05/2024 07:19

The Joie Bold score you can see on RACE.es or if you fiddle about on ÖAMTC with the wayback machine - it performs worse than the Beryl for frontal (which is the important one) but the beryl has a bad score for side impact, however this is relevant to when the child's head is sticking out of the top, so you could reasonably assume it's better if you stop using it before that point.

Out of all the forward facing 25kg limit seats ever tested it has the best frontal crash score except for Britax Advansafix 2 which hasn't been sold for ages and was Isofix only. I do think the leg is a good safety feature.

The others tested were Diono Radian 5 and Chicco seat up if you want to compare.

Joie Finiti is fairly similar in design to the Every Stage which did poorly in forward facing harness mode. But I don't know if they have redesigned anything. This one is for sale in Germany so might be included in the May tests.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 12:25

ADAC results are out but nothing on the Joie or Graco seats, unfortunately.

Britax King Pro is a new seat I haven't seen before which has been tested this time - it's forward facing, belt fitted, R129 tested up to 105cm and 20kg limit. An update to their previous King 2 which did well when it was new (2015) but had since been outperformed by other models, mainly isofix.

Doesn't convert to booster and not that cheap, the safety rating is OK for a forward facing, belt fitted seat. It is lower compared with seats which have a rear facing mode, and isofix seats, which is to be expected. Nothing amazing but not bad. Actually, according to my notes the numerical score is identical to Joie Bold, which is interesting. The Maxi Cosi Beryl is still better (but the RF mode up to 13kg might be feeding into this).

It has a built in belt tensioner, which is a positive compared with the Joie/Graco seats, and I do think Britax as a brand are good. It seems to do roughly as well as some of the better seatbelt fit Group 123 seats like the Evolva and the Recaro Young Sport Hero, so may be worth considering. However, it does look difficult to find in the UK.

It doesn't perform as well as the Recaro Tian, but that is an outlier.

GreaterPlains · 22/05/2024 23:14

@BertieBotts

I just had a quick look at the new ADAC scores myself. Thanks for pointing out the Britax king pro, it does seem to fit my requirements and as you say performs well considering it's forward facing and not isofix. I also like the way it is fitted with the belt tensioner. With it being an I-size seat it has a higher weight limit of 20kg and with a height of 105cm that should get him past 4. It seems to be available here:

ebebek.co.uk/products/britax-romer-king-pro-br-i-size-group-1-car-seat-2?variant=42213247647950

Although it's not a website I've used before so will need to check it out. The in car safety centre stock Britax seats so I know they are a good brand but they don't seem to stock that one unfortunately.

I have found a shop not too far out of my way that has an ex display maxi cosi beryl seat for £250 and they will show me how to fit it if I decide to go with that option.

I also have a friend whose child is about to outgrow their high backed booster seat and could pass it on to me so that might save me buying too many more seats!

I'll let you know which one I end up getting but thanks again for all the help and advice.

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BertieBotts · 23/05/2024 10:42

I'd be suspicious about that site as it looks like one of those template scam sites, the product is cheaper than it is anywhere else and it's not stocked in the UK otherwise. If you buy using paypal or a credit card, then you should be protected/get your money back but it might be a headache and I'd be worried about scammers having my payment details too.

I'd try contacting Britax directly or the in car safety centre and see if they are actually selling it in the UK at all, since it's not on their UK website. Sorry if I've sent you a red herring!

GreaterPlains · 23/05/2024 22:53

@BertieBotts

Yes you might be right. It doesn't look like the Britax king pro is going to be available in the uk. Ah well it's still good to keep an eye out for options. Looks like the maxi cosi beryl is going to be my preferred choice. I think I'll ask the shop to reserve it for me and hopefully find a time to go pick it up next week.

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