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So confusing! Conflicting advice?!

9 replies

SeptemberTime · 07/01/2024 19:41

I have spent way more time than I imagined researching car seats for my 3.5 year old and I just can’t believe all the conflicting advice and rules out there.
There are also so many variations in the safety standards. It makes choosing a car seat so difficult and many people have no idea (reasonably!)
I joined car safety Facebook groups and wow it’s like a cult for rear facing seats only and for very select brands. I had honestly never heard of Axkid or BeSafe previously.
So…….need to move my 3.5 year old into the next seat as my baby needs to move into his seat…..I have since discovered I should continue rear facing for as long as possible but until when and what concrete info backs this up? I am very safety conscious and worry that I can be led / (some would say scaremongering) and would prefer to see easy to read data / info.

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GallowwayGirl88 · 07/01/2024 21:20

There’s a great Facebook page called extended rear facing (ERF) car seat safety, any recommendation from admins would be fab.

Rear facing is always safer, again there’s plenty info on that page. I have an axkid mini kid and it will do my little one till 36kg or 125cm, our britax will last till 25kg or 125cm, so should last him till he’s 5.5, he’s high centile baby.

Swedish plus testing is the highest standard of car seat testing in the world.

what is your current seat?

RockahulaRocks · 07/01/2024 22:36

Search for the ‘Axkid rear facing car seat vs forward facing’ video on You Tube which shows the impact on a dummy representing a 3 year old travelling in both direction. I found it quite compelling when making the decision to keep DD rear facing.

Theres a lot of statistics, research out there to read but my take on it was that rear facing appeared to be safer, buying a 25KG seat will last DD until she’s 6.5 years so decent amount of time, and in the end, it gets her from A to B safely in the car as would a FF seat so why not err on the side of caution.

SeptemberTime · 08/01/2024 08:44

Ah yes am on the ERF group but to be honest I haven’t seen anything other than vague info on when a child is then safer to FF. We have a britax romer at the moment and have an Axkid on the way but am wondering if I’ve been scremongered into a ERF if that makes sense?

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SeptemberTime · 08/01/2024 08:47

Thank you - we have an Axkid on the way but I hadn’t seen this video and it’s good to see. I would be interested to see the same for 4, 5 and 6 year olds!

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BertieBotts · 08/01/2024 11:37

Britax-Romer is the brand - I guess it's probably the Dualfix you've had? That is their seat that goes rear facing and forward facing (there is another but it's newer so probably not what you have).

Axkid are good seats, and if your DC is happy rear facing then it's beneficial to carry on as it does offer the best safety.

Equally though I also think it's totally reasonable to forward face at 3.5 if that's your decision. It is never safer to forward face, except for the driver! But even in Sweden the majority of parents move to forward facing between the ages of 3y3m and 3y9m according to an observational study by Besafe.

The reason that you'll get conflicting opinions/advice is that basically we are talking about risk and probability not absolutes. Even with a rear facing car seat, there will unfortunately be some accidents that are so severe the passengers of the car do not survive. And forward facing car seats do offer better protection than seatbelt alone or being unrestrained.

So there are minor accidents where it doesn't matter if your DC is in a forward or rear facing seat, it will protect them. There are severe accidents where it doesn't matter if your DC is in a forward or rear facing seat because no seat could protect them. Then there are accidents in the middle where if a child is in a FF seat they might not survive whereas if they had been RF they would. This is the gap in protection between RF and FF.

As children get older, the gap reduces. For example at one year old, the gap is very large. So large that most countries in the world have a minimum allowable age to forward face. For example, American states have either 1 year or 2 years. The newer EU/UK regulation is 15 months. The gap is so large that it is actually illegal to use a forward facing seat for a younger child. But as children get older, the gap reduces so that the probability you'll be in an accident where it actually matters is much smaller.

So basically people's risk tolerance is just different and it will also depend on other factors.

If you are the kind of person who wants to know, in the event that you were in an accident, that you all have the very best possible protection and are covered for as many eventualities as possible, and/or you do a lot of driving and/or you do more driving on country roads (probability of serious accidents) or motorways (low chance of accident but high severity when they happen) then rear facing up to the limit of the largest capacity ERF seat OR if you have a child who is smaller for their age, rear facing until you are 100% happy to put them into a booster seat is a very good choice. This is typically the choice that ERF advocates see as the absolute only option. They would like to see forward facing, 5 point harness seats completely phased out and a minimum age of more like 4-5 to change to a high backed booster seat.

But there are other viewpoints - personally I am of the view that this kind of rhetoric is unhelpful because the same solution will not fit everybody. If you are happy with ERF and you can afford it and it is comfortable and your child is happy with it and it fits your car etc then - absolutely all fine, and I'm really happy these seat options exist and def support people raising awareness of them.

And I think there are a lot of ERF myths out there so if you are worried you can't afford an ERF seat, I will help you find a cheaper one. If you are worried your car won't fit an ERF seat, I will help with graphics and videos and help you find a local stockist who can try different options in your car. If you need to fit 3x seats across the back of an ordinary car, ERF is actually pretty good for this. If you are worried about legs or travel sickness or children getting bored, I will happily share some resources and explanations about this. We have an inherent bias against ERF because it is not what we are used to/familiar with and it's human nature to gravitate towards what we are familiar with. So I totally 100% agree with the ERF enthusiasts that these are barriers we can break down and smash the myths.

Where I disagree with ERF enthusiasts is that I think there ARE scenarios where the safety benefits of ERF don't actually outweigh the other factors.

For example, some of the longer-lasting ERF seats ARE more expensive than forward facing seats, and this could cause financial difficulty for some. I don't think people should go into debt to get a better car seat. Buy the best you can comfortably afford.

When someone already owns a forward facing seat, it is not always worth it to replace with a rear facing one. That's the parent's own decision to be made.

When a child extremely dislikes rear facing, I do not think it is worth pushing through distress and discomfort for every single journey just for a theoretical benefit in a crash which might never happen. You have to weigh the everyday, small risks (discomfort, distress) with the possible-but-unlikely big risks (serious neck/head injury, death) - again it's up to the individual to weigh this up, and think about whether this is a behaviour issue and might go away if the parent insists (e.g. some children hate being strapped in, but we persist with this, distract, reward etc and most of the time they get over it), or whether it's a genuine discomfort issue that won't.

When it is impossible to use a rear facing seat safely (e.g. child frequently escapes but does not FF) you have to weigh up the ACTUAL risks, not the theoretical one - ie - while yes, RF is safer than FF, FF is MUCH safer than unrestrained.

And, lastly, there are ways to make FF safer. One of the huge benefits of ERF is that RF seats do a lot of compensation for improper use. If you have a loose harness, winter clothing, improper headrest position etc this simply does not matter as much with RF seats because the shell of the seat is doing so much of the restraint and you can't get the shell wrong except for, perhaps, totally wrong installation. The features of the seat itself also make much more of a difference when FF. It is very difficult to create a FF seat which does its job well. There are better and more basic FF seats, whereas even the most basic RF seat will do a good job at protection. The specific model of seat and how accurately it is used makes much more of a difference FF.

But where I have a problem with the ERF groups is that IRL, many many parents DO choose forward facing, they DO choose to use booster seats too young etc. To me, just saying "Only ERF is acceptable" is like an abstinence-only approach to sex education. There is a discussion to be had about what features are useful in FF seats and which are just marketing fluff. There is a useful discussion about what types of misuse happen and how to prevent them and so on. And to be fair the ERF groups tend to be pretty hot on misuse (but they also only then focus on RF seats, so people don't understand for example that in many seats, inserts should not be used when FF). If you can afford a £25 seat or a £100 seat, is there really a difference between them and what is that? I think these are really important conversations to have and those are missing in the ERF enthusiast space where the answer is always the latest ERF model.

BertieBotts · 08/01/2024 11:54

Sorry that was long which is why I've separated this out.

I don't know if you've been scaremongered into buying an Axkid. It depends I suppose on whether you've bought it on the basis of "You MUST get an Axkid otherwise your DC will be at very high risk in the car" (which is not really true) or whether you've bought it on the basis of "Axkid (etc) are the safest option" (which is true).

Other options for a 3.5yo will depend on their height, weight and maturity.

If over 15kg and 100cm (but preferably closer to 18kg+ and 105cm+) you could legally opt for a high backed booster seat. This is not a great option for safety at 3.5 - children of this age tend not to get a great fit in them and they tend to move around in the seatbelt. Many people are uncomfortable with a 3.5yo in a HBB and this is for good reason, I'd say.

If over (or close to) 18kg and/or 105cm, you could get Joie Bold which is harnessed up to 25kg, and then turns into booster seat. It's a niche option for children who still need to be harnessed but are over the more common limits for 123 type seats (the name for seats that start out harnessed and turn into booster seats). You need top tether for this seat. The safety on it is OK.

If decently under 18kg and/or 105cm, there are some good models for sale now which comprise a harnessed mode up to 18kg and/or 105cm, and convert to high backed booster. These fit using top tether and isofix. The safety ratings are comparable to good forward facing seats. These are, IMO, a really great option for a 2-4 year old child who needs to vacate a seat for a sibling, who are not yet ready for a seatbelt, but who will need a HBB seat in the future (and won't hit the height/weight limit too early). Some of these now have a slightly higher weight limit - 21/22kg - but still the 105cm height limit. If you do not want to or can't rear face I really like these seats. The safety on them is not as good as a rear facing seat but it is good, especially if they are used correctly.

If you don't have top tether points in your car (a rarity now, as they have been standard over 10 years) then your only options are a belt fitted 123 seat, which have the 18kg limit and OK safety, not as good as the top tether ones, a high backed booster, not ideal as already explained, or the Cybex Anoris, which is a forward facing impact shield seat (isofix, support leg) with airbags which works up to 115cm/21kg - it's expensive, claims to be nearly as safe as rear facing, but new enough there does not seem to be any real life accident data yet. So there are scenarios where ERF is genuinely a standout best option - if you have a DC over or close to 21kg/105cm, they have behavioural or medical issues or they are very young so are years off being able to be safe in a seatbelt, and you don't have top tether attachments - this is when ERF is objectively the best solution. In all other scenarios, it's down to parental preference and what your own priorities are.

I would say that you will likely have an issue returning the Axkid seat if you don't want it, because most car seat specialists are unhappy with accepting returns, possibly they will if the package is totally unopened and they can tell there is no sign of tampering with the seat. You do technically have rights under the distance selling act if you wanted to push it.

SeptemberTime · 08/01/2024 19:22

Oh wow, so much useful and pragmatic advice, thank you. This is exactly what the ERF groups miss.

DC is 3.5yrs / 100cm / 17kg …. We need to move my youngest into his seat or I would have been happy to keep him RF in his britax romer dualfix M (spin seat) until he reached 105cm which I imagine would be around another year then I would have likely switched to HBB.

He’s happy to RF so I have no challenges in that respect. We tried out an Axkid mini 4 and a BeSafe stretch but they took up so much space and it’s incredibly tight for the front passenger, plus the belt & tethers were a faff from the demo and put us off as we will regularly switch the seat between cars. We have order the Axkid one 2 with isofix, they do say we can return if it’s not right so will test it out and see how we get on.

My understanding also is that if DC is in the front of a car (smart two seater) then RF is the only safe option? Is this correct?

OP posts:
wasanneofcleves · 08/01/2024 19:26

Just saving my place to come back to this thread later!

BertieBotts · 08/01/2024 23:01

If he's 17kg now then you might hit 18kg before a year's time, so it is worth having a seat with a higher than 18kg limit.

The Axkid One2 is supposed to be really great in terms of how compact you can fit it, with the rails this is really easy (apparently, I've not used one) so you can have whatever trade off you like with the leg room and front seat space. Also supposed to be brilliant for swapping between cars as v light and the isofix is simple.

If you were to go forward facing then I'd say look at Britax Advansafix Pro or Evolvafix or Silver Cross Balance. These have something like 21kg weight limit 105cm height limit on the harness, decent safety rating (not as good as RF). They use top tether and honestly I find the top tether a pain to attach, detach, loosen and tighten because you have to go in and out of the boot rather than just the back of the car.

Rear facing in the front is safe if the airbag is switched off.

Forward facing in front seat is a bit of a hot potato topic. I am afraid I don't know a huge amount about it. I know that the airbag inflating is potentially very hazardous if it happens at the child's face level, bearing in mind they are designed to go off at adult male chest level. There have been children who have been killed by airbags, usually in the scenario that they happen to be leaning down towards the glove box to fetch something, but I think there was also a case where a child was looking down at something they were reading, which is a very common scenario today with older children and phones. Your car manual should have guidance for the airbag. Some say with child seats you turn it off regardless of direction, some say on for forward facing seats, they almost all say to put the front seat as far back as possible, which is to do with clearance from the airbag. If you have the option to RF longer then it probably does make sense to continue RF until the child is as tall as possible in order that they are better protected from the airbag, unless your car says to turn it off.

So yes, some people say that it's never safe to FF a child in the front until they are over 150cm tall. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's never safe, but I can't confidently say it's fine either. Sorry not very helpful! I think I'd go by where their body is positioned compared to an adult's, along with consulting the car manual and the manufacturer.

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