When does seatbelt become safer than five point harness?

[PensionPuzzle]

Just as the title really, I've a 4.5 year old who isn't far off the minimum height and weight for using the car seatbelt instead of using the five point harness (and is very sensible so no worries on that) in her FF seats. BUT I'm wondering if, just because she meets the criteria when she eventually does, when is it actually safer on balance to ditch the harness and go for the belt?

I suspect it may in part depend on the seat, for example her occasional use seat is a Britax Evolva 123 (bought a while ago and used in several different cars) which doesn't have a top tether so I'm pretty keen to swap that into HBB mode sooner than I perhaps would her Joie Bold which is her main seat.

She is low centiles so will be about 15 by the time she hits the harness weight and height limit for the Bold 😂 so she won't just naturally 'time out' of the harness, I'll have to actively make a decision to swap to the seatbelt.

Essentially I suppose I'm asking when can I safely swap to the belt to mitigate the downsides of FF with a five point harness, do I do it as soon as she hits all the minimums or do I hang on a bit, when does the balance tip?

I suspect that a 5 point harness is always safer than a seatbelt (what do racing drivers wear?) but adults can't be bothered with the 5 point thing and so a seatbelt is a lot better than nothing.

switch when you want. it probably doesn't matter.

US research suggests that it's better to stick with the 5 point harness until 18kg rather than switch at 15kg, especially if the child is younger.

The top tether thing is a bit misunderstood; the Evolva is better than other seatbelt fitted 123 type seats because it has the Serpentine type belt path. It actually has a better safety rating than Joie Bold.

It's not purely about effort. Seatbelts have the benefit of automatically adjusting so you don't need to change the tightness every time. There is less to get wrong with a HBB, and they are a bit more tolerant of damage to the seat, whereas a 5 point harness seat needs everything to be right in order for the seat's protection to be good. So there is actually a safety benefit to seatbelts over 5 point harness, not just convenience. It seems that under 3 is an absolute no-no for a seatbelt, on balance it's probably better to wait a bit longer, I've never seen a good fit in a child who isn't at least close to age 4. There is the behavioural component of course - which is probably fine at 4.5 :)

Racing drivers are probably trained to have their harness adjusted correctly (or have a trained team do it for them) whereas parents are not and they also always wear skintight clothing and they wear a HANS device to protect their neck from injury. All of that is because they are doing high speed driving and in a crash they need the absolute optimal protection.

Thanks @BertieBotts for your informed advice as always on here 🙂 will stick with the five point a while yet then if 18kg is the sweet spot, she is quite happy in the harness.

That's great about the Evolva too, I had just assumed with it being retired and as it seems all the FF seats have a tether now that it wouldn't be as good as a newer model. It's a lovely seat so I'll keep using it with the harness with more confidence now!

@PensionPuzzle it's been a while, but the advice we were given is that a standard seat belt should sit across the shoulder. If it sits too high or across the neck stick with the harness.

If you have the Evolva SICT it's slightly better. But even the normal one is good. Britax make very good seats.

@BertieBotts - if they are tall but lower weight would you recommend the seatbelt also? I have just been looking for Ds as he’s 102cm but only 14kg. So almost out maxi cosi mica. But ideally I want to get the maxi cosi kore for next seat as it’s lightweight for moving between cars, travel and narrower when we need two adults in back also. It tight with the mica atm. He will be 4 when we move him (and probably gained a kg so 15kg+)

I don't know honestly - it's really hard to say as it's so individual and there isn't a lot of clear evidence either way. 3cm and 1kg is roughly 6 months worth of growth. I was personally OK with continuing to use the harnessed seat if they were physically OK in it even if past the height limit, especially if it was just 1-2cm over, but you have to make your own judgement there. I know officially they should come out at 105cm.

Sounds like you have a while to go so I'd just wait if you can :) The Maxi Cosi Rodifix Pro looks a little bit nicer IMO than the Kore and didn't look that much wider to me - I was at the Maxi Cosi/Bebeconfort outlet the other day and the new Rodifix was really nice.

It's defo minimum 15kg and 100cm, the closer you can get to 105cm and/or 18kg the better really :) In theory it should be fine if you max out the previous seat and you are happy with changing to seatbelt behaviour wise.

My teeny tiny 8yo is 112 cm and about 16.5 kg (I know - she's perfectly healthy, just really really small and light for her age) and we changed her to seat belt a couple of months ago. I didn't realise they were only supposed to use the harness up to 105 cm! She was fine in the harness but the seat itself was getting too small.

The other thing is that in your situation the only real option to continue in a harness past 105cm, unless you are happy to go past the height limit, is the Joie Bold, and the Joie Bold is a step down from the Maxi Cosi Kore in terms of safety rating as well as being much bulkier and heavier, so you'd be sacrificing (6+) years of your preferred seat to use as a booster just for an extra few months in a harness, so you might want to take a longer term view and say yes, maybe it's slightly less ideal weight to move to seatbelt but this is short term, and it's still safe enough (if over 100cm and 15kg).

I'm sure i read that a seat belt is safer when FF. I'm going to try and find it...

The 105cm was in reply to Caspianberg because she has the Maxi Cosi Mica seat which has a limit of 105cm. If you have a different seat then you might not have the 105cm limit on yours :) Especially if you bought it a few years ago - the change to height limited seats is more recent.

Ah, I see! It is (was) a Joie Spin (I think it's called that - one that can be RF or FF).

Yes this used to be said, but it's recently come out that this might not actually be true - someone suggested that it was coming from the manufacturers of the impact shield seats, but I think it also comes from the ERF manufacturers. Certainly it seems to be received wisdom in Sweden. But the data from Sweden is very old (1990s and earlier) and probably not realistically comparable to the forward facing seats that are on the market today.

OTOH the idea that a seatbelt isn't safe until (4, 5, 6 have been ages I've seen suggested) might also be financially motivated as this comes from manufacturers in Australia and the US who want to sell you a longer-lasting 5 point harness seat.

So, it's not very clear. Certainly not as clear as the difference between RF/FF. Which probably means that it doesn't matter as much as people claim and you're basically fine doing either, as long as the child is at least 3, 100cm, 15kg - but preferably over 4 (or older), and as close as possible to 105cm and 18kg (or more).

@BertieBotts - I did see the maxi cosi rodi pro and was debating the difference between that and kore but it says it’s 51cm wide when taller, The kore is only 44cm. So when two adults also in back it might be too wide. But the rodi pro does recline more doesn’t it?

I tried to look locally but they didn’t have in local Oamtc (AA equivalent here), and no other baby stores for hours sell maxi cosi car seats except the baby capsule version.

Hes still comfy and fits in the maxi cosi mica. I think he has long legs and not long torso so hopefully that helps.

The width measurements of high backed boosters are often total nonsense unfortunately, the only real option is to go and check in person. I think because they just don't measure them from the same places. Maxi Cosi often have some specific measurement diagrams on their website too.

I can't remember where you are based but maybe you have Zwergperten? They tend to be overpriced but their advice/training is really good. Or if you are in a German speaking country you could search for any "Reboarder-Laden". Although honestly even the standard, big box type baby stores tend to have a good selection of high backed boosters if you wanted to look at them. We even have a furniture store here selling premium baby products which is likely where we will go to get our next one.

Dorel (owner of Maxi Cosi) used to operate three brands in Europe - Maxi Cosi, Bébéconfort and Safety 1st. The Bébéconfort seats were exactly the same as Maxi Cosi except for some legacy models that they kept for brand familiarity. Safety 1st was a budget line. However last year they decided to retire the Safety 1st line and roll out Maxi Cosi EU-wide covering all countries, and they have moved the Bébéconfort branding to the budget range. I would guess this is because people shit on Safety 1st and say it's all Team Tex (they did have some Team Tex designs and they are basic.)

You could also ask on one of the FB groups if anyone can physically measure them for you - there are various retailers on the UK ones who have multiple in stock at once. Or Car Seats For The Littles EU are quite good at measurements.

In general you don't want to recline a high backed booster because this will tip the hips forward and is slightly riskier - I wouldn't choose HBB based on recline. Many of them have features built into the headrest to support sleep instead, like Cybex have a panel that can be tilted back, and Britax used to have a V-shape on their older seats, though they don't any more. It might be a bit less of an issue if you have one with the extra crotch strap e.g. like Britax Kidfix or Besafe izi flex.

We currently have for DS2 Advansafix i-size (using in booster mode) and he fit into it until 109cm then he was too tall for the harness. We do sometimes recline it because of the strap, but you don't really need to - he could sleep in it without recline. The actual limit on that one is 102cm - the newer ones are 105cm. Maxi Cosi Titan Pro i-size (or just the i-size without the Pro) is a good one if you were thinking of changing to a 123 - but again 105cm limit, so if happy in the Mica, then in many ways why not just stick with it. The Titan has no option to rear face. The earlier Titan seats were not so good because the harness was very short and I used to struggle to fit it to older 3 year olds even. It was the one that people tended to buy when they wanted a forward facing seat for straight after the baby seat which made me 😬 but it did seem to be made a bit "smaller" - one year olds had a good fit in the harness (even though I privately thought they really ought to be rear facing) whereas the Advansafix's lowest harness slot is too tall and there is too much space around the hips. We were without a car for a bit last year so I had the seats in the bedroom, and the DC were playing around sitting in the wrong ones, so you can see here - this was just before their 5th/2nd birthdays, DS2 is in the Joie 360 with headrest all the way up and only just fits, DS3 is in the Advansafix with headrest on the lowest position and is too small for this seat.

In fact, I think you won't be able to find any 25kg harness seats - your only option if you want to stay harnessed past 105cm (without going over limit) will be rear facing unless you can find old stock of some R44 seats. If you do find them, you'll probably get a good discount at least because the shops have to clear all their stock by September this year.

Forgot to attach picture

The Joie Bold has a 5 point harness until 25kg, my DD's 4yo and I've just moved her out of the rear facing 360 to the Bold so she at least has a 5 point harness for a while longer.

@BertieBotts - thank you. Our closest Babyone store is Graz (or Vienna), but they are still 3-4+ hrs drive from us. I see they have free returns though, so I’m tempted to just ordered both and see, then return the one im not keeping.

He prob has 4-6 months left in the mica, just I see some offers recently and I need a more travel option for May as he’s outgrown the joie tilt we used for flights previously

We also have xxxlutz nearby, which is like a local John Lewis, but they only had maxi cosi online and Instore only had cybex, joie and Britax and the really basic graco

XXXLutz is the one we have and they have loads of Cybex, a couple of Osann and Joie and Britax last time I looked. But they seemed to have a lot of HBBs.

I used to work at BabyOne :) Good selection, but not much in the way of training for the staff. I was basically left to watch youtube videos though I was also allowed to play around with the seats as much as I wanted. I think if you're ordering online anyway, then you may as well order from whatever discounter has the best price including Amazon. Just check returns policy as I had an issue when I ordered a Cybex car seat online and then it didn't work with the base they said it was compatible with on their website - they were very unhappy about me returning it because they didn't accept returns on car seats. I argued that I had bought it on the basis of their claim, they then changed what the website said but luckily I already had screenshots and they did accept the exchange in the end. It wasn't BabyOne but I can't remember who it was now. The good thins about ordering from BabyOne (if it's the same policy as Germany) is that they do the accident guarantee so they do all the liasing with your insurance company if you're in an accident and sort you out a new seat.

You might want to look at Recaro Monza CFX? I recommended that to someone recently as a travel option as it folds and seems fairly compact. No safety rating on it as yet but the Recaro HBBs have done well in the past - their previous Monza models were right up in the top ten for safety.

@KatieKat88 yes the Joie Bold is a great option for this in the UK. I think Caspian will struggle to find this as she is in another EU country.