Lightweight vs Lie Flat ??

[amythompson62]

Hi all,

We are expecting our first child in March and with Black Friday coming up - have been looking at equipment options in case there are any good bargains …

Really torn over what’s important - being lightweight (i.e. the Nuna pupa next) vs getting a lie - flat (maxi Cosi pro 360 / Cloud T)….

What does everyone think ? We’re not planning on doing any monster drives to southern Europe any time soon , we live in zone 2 London with a car so can imagine popping in and out of the car to the supermarket / lunch etc where it would be handy if the baby could snooze etc….

If I hadn’t seen so many comments about the posture being terrible in the Pipa Next then weight would probably trump the lie flat ones - are there any similar lightweight travel system friendly car seats on the market that provide a better recline than the Nuna?

Thanks !

Have you sorted out a pushchair/travel system yet? They generally cost way more than car seats and not all of them will be compatible with all car seats if you do want to be able to clip them
on and off a travel system.

Lie flat is really useful, I also really rate maxi cosi, we had a pebble plus and it isn’t advertised as lay flat but with the new born insert baby was very flat, not scrunched or bent in there at all.

Equally I don’t think I knew light weight car seats existed, I would wonder if it has an impact on safety eg. I’m not sure it’s something I want to be lightweight. Weight was an issue for us so we went for a very lightweight travel system.

It depends how you think you’ll use the car seat/travel system or a sling. If you’re zone 2 are you using public transport a lot? How much do you actually use the car?

We had the cloud z which is very similar to the cloud T, I think maybe it's the model before? It didn't recline in the car but could do when attached to the pram and also when taken out of the car which helped us a lot as baby would sleep in the car seat and if I wanted to keep him in there asleep I could lie him flat which is much safer than leaving him upright in the seat. However, it was a VERY heavy car seat and I always struggled with it. We're expecting our second soon and I will use it again as I like the seat, but the weight is a bit of an issue. The nuna pipa is notorious for a bad fit which is unsafe so for me I would choose safety over weight of the seat.

Avionaut Pixel will tick all of your boxes :)

It has a great position for little ones, doesn't "lie flat" in the sense of reclining, but really that's a bit of a compromise anyway as any kind of movement in the seat is likely to affect the structural integrity. Instead it has a very nice supportive insert that holds the child in a straight line rather than a C shaped curve.

It's made from EPS foam which is strong so no worries about it being structurally unsound.

People on the car seat pages are also waxing lyrical about the new Britax Baby-safe Core, which is Britax's new basic offering.

Both of these fit onto the same adapters like Maxi Cosi, Nuna, Cybex etc.

I do think a lot of the features sold with the high end seats are just marketing and not particularly useful.

Ordinary baby car seats are already quite reclined, so it's perfectly fine to let babies sleep in them if they are already asleep when go to take them out of the car. As long as it's not used as a replacement for their cot, and you aren't keeping them in the seat all day going from house to car to pushchair back to car to house all in the seat, it's fine. Keeping them in the car seat all day is a problem, because the position is quite restrictive for them whereas for their development they need the freedom to move around and roll etc on a flat surface. When travel systems were first invented in the early 2000s they were presented as this wonder solution which would do it all - car safety, often the ONLY option for babies <6 months on the buggy, rocking seat in the house for sleeping or playing, feeding chair (of course people no longer give runny purees to 3 month old babies so you don't wean them in a reclined seat any more!) and this was where you saw the problem of people overusing the seats, so started to see general warnings/advice about not overusing the baby seat. Now it seems to have almost overcorrected where people think they aren't supposed to let babies sleep in the car seat at all, which isn't quite right.

The general rule of thumb given is no longer than 2 hours in the seat at once. Which means if you do put them in the car, then put the seat on the buggy or shopping trolley then go back to the car, you're generally OK and/or would need to take them out for a cuddle.

When they are newborn (up to about 4 weeks) you should be more cautious and aim not to exceed car seat durations of 30 minutes. This isn't negated by any of the lie flat seats unless you get a carrycot style which is properly lie flat (but these take up 2x seats in your car and are outgrown sooner than the other types).

@BertieBotts that's not all strictly true about it being fine for babies to sleep in car seats outside of the car. Positional asphyxiation is a real thing and something to be very wary of until they're over 6 months. Car seats keep babies in a position that's safe for the car in the event of a crash but not particularly safe for their breathing for longer periods of time which is why there are limits on how long to keep them in the seat for. For example, if you drive 20 minutes to a park, walk around the park for an hour with baby sleeping in the car seat attached to the pram and then another 20 minute drive home that way exceeds the limit they should be in the seat and they should be transferred to the carry cot pram attachment for the walk. It's also worth noting positional asphyxiation happens silently so keeping an eye on them won't necessarily help.

Yes, I'm aware of this, but the guidance (at least in the UK) to avoid/reduce the risk of positional asphyxiation is to keep them in the car seat for no longer than 2 hours at a time (30 mins if under 4 weeks). And yes in your example, it would be better to use the carrycot for the walk, or pick them up and carry them for a bit when they wake up, if they have fallen asleep on the way there. Though the total time that you suggested is less than 2 hours, so this would also be fine/within guidance for a baby over 4 weeks old.

Guidance in other countries varies, I understand that the US line is simply to not let them sleep in the car seat unless it's in the car. That might be because it's more common to drive longer distances there, so the 2 hour/30 min limit might be less practical. Either way the overall message is the same: Don't leave them in the seat all day every day, pick a different sleeping location where possible and definitely don't use it as a replacement for a cot.

Realistically, most parents don't want to disturb their baby from a nap so what you end up doing if you won't let them sleep in the seat outside the car is just staying in the car to let them finish their nap, which makes no sense if you have a carry seat and can take it out. The angle of the seat in the car is generally more upright than it is when it's on a pram or on the floor inside anyway.

I am not sure where the 6 month guideline comes from, I haven't heard this one before. As I understand it, there's no upper limit to this guidance because unfortunately the risk doesn't go away - the restrictive position of car seats isn't a good one in terms of safe sleep. But as long as you are using the car seat sensibly the risk is very low. Babies commonly fall asleep in the car and it isn't something to worry about if your seat is fitted correctly and you aren't overusing it.

@BertieBotts yes the guidance is 2 hours but there isn't any published evidence as to two hours being safe or longer than this being unsafe, it's just a guideline that's a complete guesstimate.

The risk reduces over six months because a baby is bigger and their airway is larger and has developed so the risk of positional asphyxiation reduces, but isn't eliminated so it's still important to be careful with car seat safety times.

Hi all,

Lots of discussions here about the merits of lie flat it otherwise - but I’m still not 100% if there’s any broad consensus on whether the Cloud T (at 4.5kg) is just too heavy to be worth it (is it significantly more than most other seats or just a BIT heavier), and whether people think I’ll resent the weight when the baby is 9-10 months down the line ?

Like I said before - not planning any mammoth journeys, but I suppose I like the sound of being able to leave the baby to sleep if we get out and about to the supermarket , a park , a cafe, home even etc without feeling pressured to wake him up to move into the bassinet …

Very interested in any recommendations for any others that ARENT lie flat but that have good reclines and are less than 4.3kg (weight of the pebble 360 pro) - have checked out Britax Baby-safe Core and the Avionaut Pixel which look good - any others out there ???

Thanks !

Babies are heavy, so TBH the weight of the car seat itself doesn't make a huge difference except when they are really tiny. I had an Aton 5 (4.8kg) which I was able to carry around until they were approx 12mo, but I wasn't carrying it far at that point - I do seem to remember it being a pain to lug around from around 4-8m and finding it unwieldy and at 8m+ I just avoided carrying it far at all.

Think about your set up from car to house. We live in a flat with a car park and lift, so what we generally did was stick the car seat into the buggy and wheel it inside, even for that short of a distance. Sometimes we carried it. When they were newborn it was no problem to carry them.

With DS1 I had Mothercare Travel Tot which was 2.55kg (according to google) and I could carry him in it up to around 18m when I stopped using it altogether. With this I lived in a house and we parked on the street, but I didn't have a compatible buggy. It's hard to compare because there was so long between them but I would guess that this was probably a bit more practical/comfortable. But because I had the pram with the Cybex, I rarely needed to carry it far anyway.

Some baby equipment shops will have a weighted doll that you can try out in the seats, usually around 6kg (equivalent of a 3 month old baby).

@BertieBotts - brilliant, OK I think you've sold me that 4.5kg is more than manageable - I think on balance its worth going for a better recline for a few extra kgs...

We live in a ground floor flat with direct access out the front to our car on the street so no issues rolling anywhere once it gets heavy - thats a really good point and hadn't really thought about that.

Thanks! Cloud T it is :)

I haven't seen the Cloud T in person, but the older Cloud models (Z) were really lovely seats. Well designed and just nice. I do wince a bit at the price but if money was no object I do think it was the nicest car seat that was on the market at that time.

To be honest all of the med-higher end ones seem to be around the same price (~£400 all in) , I mostly can't believe the cost of the bases !!!!

Yes. I think they are cheeky honestly. They have this big thing about the base being useful because you can use it for the next seat, but watch out for this as it's a bit of a con in practice, the seats you put on those bases usually cost about £300 whereas you can get a huge range of toddler seats for £300 which don't need a separate base. They even often have the exact same seat which has a base attached for £300 or less.

I thought there was actually a cheaper base for the Cloud seats without swivel function but I can't find it now.

As far as lie flat is concerned, I wouldn't be overly worried unless you needed to do huge mileage eg lived rurally with 80 mins school runs - back when mine were born people kept them in them all day, in the house etc.

Just another thought about the bases….
We had the base for our infant carrier as we naively believed that this was safer. They simply remove user error in fitting the car seat. Belted carriers are just as safe as long as they are fitted correctly. Belted carriers also ensure that the carrier isn’t tilted too much causing head flop, which can be really beneficial in a car with sloped seats. We had a VW Polo and suffered terribly with head flop using the isofix base.
If I had another baby now, I’d buy an Avonaut Pixel Pro and belt it in, the use the money saved from not buying the base towards an ERF to take them through to safe HHB age.

It's no safer to use the base, but if OP wants the tilt function then they do need the base, because the tilt function can only be used in the car with the base. When it's seatbelt fitted it has to be in the upright position only.

The angle on/off the base is totally dependent on the car - a lot of newer cars these days now have higher up isofix points to avoid that tilt back that you tend to get in cars which are a tiny bit older (probably last 10/15 years except for the very newest ones).

Also, I think it's worth trying the belted mode out in a shop if you do plan to use it like that. I had that with my first DS's car seat and it was fine. But with the Cybex that we had, the few times I fitted it with seatbelt I found it quite annoying and fiddly, like it wasn't designed to be done every day but only occasionally. When I used to work with car seats I found that Maxi Cosi and Britax seemed to have really good, easy, intuitive designs for belt fitting plus a lot of the cheaper/more basic brands, but the fancier ones where basically everyone buys the base were more annoying and fiddly to fit with belt.