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Forward Facing Car Seat at 11 months??

44 replies

Theresa24 · 21/03/2023 20:36

Looking for some advice as I'm clashing with DH on car seats for our DS.

DS is 11 months & weights approx 10.3 kg & is about 70 cm's tall. He's currently in a Silver Cross baby carrier, which he is rapidly growing out of. (My DD used this until she was 15-18 months because she was so small, so moved straight into a forward facing seat about 4.5 years ago).

However...I only have a Ford Fiesta (15 plate) and so room in the back is tight. (Only just fits the Silver Cross on the ISOFIX base). BUT all reward car seats don't seem to fit in my car. DH said put him in forward facing now as he's the right weight (9kg+ for our Joie car seats). But with all the new research, post lockdown driving style changes & a small accident when someone reversed into me while I was driving last Friday (with DS in the car!) I'm really worried about putting him forward facing. He's so young & the advice it to keep them reward as long as possible now.

Am I being extra paranoid? DH keeps saying "it was fine for us as kids", but that was the 80's & 90's!!

I need a bigger car & I will get one later this year/early next...but I'm so torn with what to do. I just want to keep my DS safe, the roads are a scary place these days.

OP posts:
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thatheavyperson · 21/03/2023 22:22

I've had a hefty ERF seat in quite a small car until recently. It was tight but doable, depending on the height of the driver.

I believe I've seen the avionaut sky 2.0 recommended as an option where space is a problem? I've never used it personally so don't know much about it, but it's Swedish plus approved and rear faces for quite some time.

Itsonlyagame · 21/03/2023 22:31

UpUpUpU · 21/03/2023 21:30

Where do your child’s legs go when rear facing at 4-6? Genuine question. My some I’m 115cm so can’t imagine him tear facing

My son rear faced till 5, he is 99.6th centile height. He actually didn't like forward facing because his legs hurt dangling when we finally turned him around. Small children are much more flexible than adults.

Lavender2021 · 21/03/2023 23:02

You can get seats for up to 36kg or 125cm which ever comes first for rear facing.

Kranke · 21/03/2023 23:05

Can you get a Cybex Anoris in the car? They are safer than the rear facing seats. It quite big and expensive though.

Lavender2021 · 22/03/2023 03:22

No car seat expert will recommend the Cybex Anoris. It's not safer than a plus tested rear facing seat-cybex own no plus tested seat's. Child can be thrown from this type of seat.
They try to claim it's safe but have never taken it for the plus test, which companies can do with any seat.

TokenGinger · 22/03/2023 03:33

I'd invest in a new seat that does fit rear facing. I had a Renault Clio up until last week, and the rear space was on par with my Fiesta I had before (64 plate, so same model as yours). My Axkid Minikid fit absolutely fine. My DS is almost 4, 23kg and a tall boy and was fine. There's absolutely no way I'd forward face so young.

The extended rear facing seats fit much better on the seats. My Minikid fit better than my Joie seat did that we had before. They're designed to sit more compactly.

Also, if your DS was in the car last week when you had a bump, no matter how small, his car seat needs to be replaced. They're good for one crash only.

BertieBotts · 22/03/2023 08:41

The thing is you can't really say "It was fine..." unless you were actually in an accident then you don't really know whether it would have been fine or not. I guess you could say look, he was fine in his RF seat in the accident that we recently had, so I want to stick with that. It's always percentages anyway, not a guarantee. But certainly for a child under 1 I would want them RF. At least until 15/18 months, preferably longer. But that period around 1 year they are especially vulnerable, even in lower speed crashes. It used to be when EU seats were all 9kg to move up, when you looked at pan-EU traffic accident stats, you would see a clear spike in the fatality numbers of children around 12mo because they were being moved to FF and not surviving in accidents where they would have survived RF. Younger children were mostly RF so were surviving. Older children it's more the fringe cases where it makes a difference. This is a large part of why the newer guidance was changed to minimum 15 months.

The smallest rear facing seats are the 25kg ones or possibly the Joie Tilt I think takes up less space than the Joie spin seats. The multi stage ones like Stages / Every Stage take up a lot more space than other RF seats because they need to be so reclined, plus a bulky base, plus the height needed to expand for older children. Britax Max Way is the cheapest RF 25kg seat that is relatively compact. (Though it is about £200, so I appreciate not cheap).

Another couple of tips for fitting a RF seat are to look at the recline of the front seat, could you comfortably make this more upright? That can often get you a few more cm. Are you needing the front seat to be further back to accommodate a tall driver/passenger? Could you fit a belt fitted seat in the middle? Or in the front with airbag off? (Even temporarily until you feel DS is old enough to FF safely?) This is an article with album link at the end showing ERF in many small cars. The tone is a bit snarky but if you can ignore that and look at the actual car seats it is helpful. You will notice very few isofix spin seats because they tend to be bulkier, only one multi-stage seat and not many Joie seats except Tilt. Some of the seats here are older models/unavailable now but there are updated versions of most of them.

erfmission.com/you-cant-rear-face-in-small-cars-debunking-myths-4/

Which Joie seats do you have now which fit FF but not RF? TBH, I would be reluctant to use a Joie seat FF for a child that is younger, because you must take all the inserts out to use them FF, and it tends to mean they don't fit that well. And the belt fitted ones have very minimal safety features FF. They obviously pass the legal testing, but I'd be happier with something like Maxi Cosi Tobi that has belt tensioners for example, or something like Britax Trifix or Maxi Cosi Titan with top tether.

As for the impact shield seats, it's not really true that no car seat expert endorses them, certainly people who are very pro ERF do not like them, and they don't really compare to RF, but if you're not comparing against Plus tested ERF seats but a standard FF seat, they can actually be a reasonable option for FF.

The problem with the ADAC/Which ratings on the impact shield seats (airbags or not) is that you're really only comparing the neck forces. It's true that they do better than standard FF seats for neck forces. (Though not as good as RF). The airbag one does especially well with neck forces, basically on a par with RF, which is encouraging. The piece of information which is missing from these test results is the ejection chance on rollover or offset crash (where you crash head on, but don't hit each other straight, e.g. when one car is only slightly over the centre line) and the potential for abdominal injuries. These risks are not tested for in those crash tests. Standard impact shield seats in the same style as Cybex Pallas, Joie Trillo Shield, the Kiddy seats (now defunct) etc, have been around long enough to have real world numbers on their use and when everything is averaged out they have about the same average protection against serious injury/death as forward facing 5 point harness seats. Fewer neck/spine injuries, higher ejection and abdominal injuries. The Cybex airbag seat is NOT included in this comparison because it has not been in existence long enough so we don't know if the airbag alleviates any of the issues. There is a slight advantage of shield seats for younger children (around 1yo) but the advantage tips to 5 point harness by the time children are around 3yo. Whether that's to do with them being less vulnerable to neck injury by that age or whether it is to do with them being that much larger with less of their body behind the shield, I don't know. Nobody has studied that.

To be perfectly honest if you have the £700 (!) to spend on the Cybex Anoris I would look at spending it on the Axkid One2 or changing the car.

To summarise:

  • Try a 25kg seat such as Britax Max Way or Axkid Minikid if you can find a local stockist
  • Try Joie Tilt (though it will probably only fit until ~2.5, at which point you could switch to your FF seat)
  • Try the RF seat you currently have (if belt fitted) in the front or middle seat (airbags off in front).
  • Swap cars with DH until you can change your car
  • If going for FF, go for a highly rated one with excellent tight fit for LO and good safety features
  • Consider impact shield seats as well
Lastly I've just gone back to OP - outgrowing at 70cm, are you sure of that height/that he's outgrowing it? That would be a very unusual height to outgrow a silver cross seat as they are fairly roomy. Have you removed all inserts, and do you know about the compartment on the back to raise the straps (if it's that SC seat that has it)? How are you classing outgrowing - head or legs? It's OK for a baby's legs to come out of the end but their head must be contained inside the shell. Sometimes people worry about it when there is about 2-3cm of growth left, but babies do stop growing quite so rapidly, that's why larger clothing sizes go up every 6 months rather than every 3. You might feasibly be able to wait it out. As others have said, the car seat should be discarded after a crash, but you might be able to get something like Joie Juva for instance, which is a cheap but roomy infant seat, fits with seatbelt or optional base for about £60, and keep him in that for a good 6 more months to tide you over.
BertieBotts · 22/03/2023 08:42

Sorry that was really long - lots to include.

JessicaPeach · 22/03/2023 20:05

BertieBotts · 22/03/2023 08:42

Sorry that was really long - lots to include.

It was long, but super informative, thanks for taking the time to write it

Kranke · 22/03/2023 20:44

Lavender2021 · 22/03/2023 03:22

No car seat expert will recommend the Cybex Anoris. It's not safer than a plus tested rear facing seat-cybex own no plus tested seat's. Child can be thrown from this type of seat.
They try to claim it's safe but have never taken it for the plus test, which companies can do with any seat.

Thanks for this. Can you send the link to them being thrown from the seat as I can’t find it anywhere? Only asking as my uncle tests car seats and he said it was the safest one he’s ever come across for that age group. Thanks.

Lavender2021 · 22/03/2023 21:38

@Kranke see @BertieBotts reply as it's a great reply.
For the price I would get an Axkid ONE2 or even a besafe stretch for longer use.

NameChange30 · 22/03/2023 21:53

"Britax Max Way is the cheapest RF 25kg seat that is relatively compact. (Though it is about £200, so I appreciate not cheap)."

Agree the Max Way (or Max Way Plus) is a great seat. But what about the Two Way Elite? It's cheaper and more compact I think. I know the side impact protection isn't as good as the max way, but it's certainly safer than FF.

BertieBotts · 22/03/2023 22:00

The info about the ejection risk from shield type seats (not the Anoris as it's newer than this study) is repeated in various sources, but one that is fairly accessible/easy to find is this GRSP presentation. I don't know if the commentary is available anywhere.

https://unece.org/DAM/trans/doc/2014/wp29grsp/GRSP-55-39e.pdf

You can also see this rollover test on youtube with some Q&A from the video uploader below.

That said, I don't think it's fair to say all impact shield seats are terrible, don't touch them. But I also think it's important to have all the information, if you are just looking at crash tests which test for head excursion and neck loading, then you're not getting the full story as you can clearly see here.

We don't know if the airbag would alleviate this problem, my guess is not, because an airbag isn't solid and would not keep the child in the seat if gravity is working against you.

We do know that on balance rear facing is still safer than impact shield. Impact shield might be worth considering if you are looking at forward facing anyway, but it shouldn't be taken as the gold standard. The gold standard is probably a 5 point harness with good safety features. Maxi Cosi also have a FF seat with airbags (and 5 point harness) - it doesn't look like it holds the neck in position as nicely as the Anoris does.

ROLLOVER TEST - impact shield

Why we don't want a system like impact shield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7zFgzHHNg0

Kranke · 22/03/2023 22:25

Lavender2021 · 22/03/2023 21:38

@Kranke see @BertieBotts reply as it's a great reply.
For the price I would get an Axkid ONE2 or even a besafe stretch for longer use.

Thanks, I couldn’t see the Anoris in there though. I’m extremely biased as I have one and I trust my uncle as he does it for a living and recommended it. I would have kept the same rear one I had but my child started to get car sick (we tried a few other rear ones), with the front facing they’ve not been sick at all, so for us we had to weigh up everything and clearing up sick after every journey was a massive factor!!

LondonPretty · 22/03/2023 22:28

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

BertieBotts · 23/03/2023 07:41

Yes, I explained why the Anoris is not there, it's a very new seat and was not on the market at the time these studies were done. The purpose of the studies is not to show that any particular seat is bad or good, it is to assess the performance of different types of restraint in comparison to each other in various scenarios. Most consumer crash tests like Plus test or ADAC are extremely narrow and only test in one specific scenario, this is on purpose to ensure that the results are comparable to each other, but it won't ever give you a full picture of how a seat will perform in real world accidents, that would be impossible (maybe in future with AI? The car seat designers are already using complicated simulation programs in their designs).

According to the Youtube user Roger Hsu who says he is an expert in the field (he certainly speaks like one, although of course online that is no guarantee) these tests have been used to improve criteria for impact shield seats approved under R129, which the Anoris is, so it probably is better than the older types however nobody could possibly say since it is so new it probably has never been involved in a real world accident yet.

In terms of your own decision, you should not worry about what other people think about it as you have presumably made the best choice for your child/family. The airbag technology really is impressive and does seem to support the head and neck better than any other forward facing seat. If neck forces are what you are worried about and you cannot RF then it is a good choice.

Caspianberg · 02/04/2023 15:06

Try the Maxi cosi mica - it wa some of the smallest ones when we looked and it fitted in our old Vauxhall corsa fine.

Soontobe60 · 02/04/2023 15:13

Rowen32 · 21/03/2023 20:40

Well it's illegal (at least it is where I live) so you could lead with that - I could never do it, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if something happened..

It isn’t illegal.
https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules

Child car seats: the law

The rules for child car seats and booster seats - height, weight, age, type of vehicle, car, minibus, licensed taxi

https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules

jannier · 02/04/2023 15:14

InTheFutilityRoomEatingBiscuits · 21/03/2023 20:44

Are you in the UK OP, it’s law to rear face until 15 months. Not a weight.

No this is the government site and depends on the seat you use....isize or weight based.

Forward Facing Car Seat at 11 months??
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