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HELP! No erf seats seam to fit my car!

33 replies

FloJo151 · 07/03/2015 13:29

I am having real trouble trying to find an ERF seat to fit my car. I have a Toyata Corrolla Verso 5 seats 2002. Its got isofix on the 2 side seats but I would have preferred to put the erf seat in the middle as I have 2 older ones (1 has ASD and if they sit next to each other all hell breaks out!) I have tried Joie stages and steadi but both have buckle crunch. I also tried out a britax first class which although not erf enough for me would at least take her to 1.5/2) but that too has buckle crunch. I then thought I might just have o shell out for an isofix (which we really cant afford ) but the britax maxway,duel fix and the new maxi cosi erf haven't been tested for my car so although the shop might sell them to us we have know way of knowing how they would perform in a crash ! :(
Anyone got any ideas? We are no where near the car safety centre either :(

OP posts:
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ThinkIveBeenHacked · 07/03/2015 13:37

Britax 2Way Elite? only thing with this is it needs to touch the seats infront so the drivers and passenger seat would need to be the same distance back.

The incar safety centre will help you over the phone and post an item out to you.

The Cybex Sirona? M&P stock it.

How old are your other two? enough so one of them can sit up front?

bronya · 07/03/2015 13:40

We have the joie ianchor that goes up to 4 years old. The base installs with a seatbelt or isofix. Mothercare sells it. Maybe worth a try?

FloJo151 · 07/03/2015 16:13

cant have one with tethers as me an oh are v diff in size! so need to be constantly moving both the drivers seat and passenger seat. Also our budget is at tops £200
Have just googled the varioguard and there fit finder says it will fit in my car. Yea! :) It even says it fits in the middle. :)

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AliceMum09 · 07/03/2015 19:36

Just double-check the instructions, I think it's the Varioguard that can only be rear facing to 18kgs if you use the ISOFIX. If you install the base with the seatbelt it can only go up to 13kgs. Don't quote me on that though, but definitely worth just checking.

FloJo151 · 08/03/2015 18:28

no your right but at least I can keep her in the middle for a little longer! And at least iv found one that actually fits!!

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Adventuredad · 10/03/2015 09:07

There are many seats fitting your car. How does your buckle look? Is the stalk made out of webbing or cable? If made out of webbing it can be twisted up to full three laps which will often get rid of buckle crunch.

Using three across is not recommend for practical reasons. Having a bay in the middle will be a nightmare with buckling etc. A far better option is to use front passenger seat with deactivated airbag. This is just as safe, or safer, than using the rear and far more practical for overall space.

The reason why some seats officially not fit your car is likely compartments underneath the floor? Do you have these? If so these can be filled or covered and a seat with support leg can still be used.

Using Isofix and three across also rarely works. This is due to the Isofix connectors being placed closer to the middle compared to seat belt installation.

The Varioguard would not be in my top 20 choices. Neither would Joie Stages.

FloJo151 · 15/03/2015 20:44

Tried the varioguard yesterday and that too has buckle crunch in the middle and cant go on isofix on the side due to floor storage.

adventuredad can you direct me to some research tht shows that twisting the webbing to avoid buckle crunch is safe as iv never heard of that before. (iv been doing soooo much research on car seats!) My other kids are 9 (no seat needed as 135cm) and 6 (HBB). Our baby carrier has fitted in the middle fine with enough room for other kids to buckle up.

we have floor storage but have no idea how you get the fillers for them.
As I said I do want to have an erf but our max budget is £200.
Have been looking at baby's red book and it looks like 13kg wont be til about 2/2.5 so we got a bit of time to play with, however baby REALLY doesn't like baby carrier so want to get next stage so they can be higher etc.

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JellyTipisthebest · 17/03/2015 04:39

Adventuredad I have emailed Britax UK about twisting the buckle and been told it is not something they would recommend. It does seam to be something that is done here in NZ and recommended by some car seat technicians I would not do it as if its not save to have the carseat belts twisted when you install the seat how can twisting the buckle be ok.
I have been having trouble getting a seat to fit my car but have found the MAXWAY fits when you fit it for more legroom on recline

Adventuredad · 17/03/2015 09:14

I'm very good friends with Britax and understand the answer. Their car seats are excellent but you also have to understand that people at customer service have little or nor experience with car seats. Especially rear facing seats.

Seat belt, including stalks, are incredibly strong. On top of that there is an incredibly large safety margin. Simple answer is that regardless how much you twist the stalks they are still very strong strong. To show how strong the belts are we can look at a practical example. Lets say a normal European male driver weigh 85 kg (187 lbs). Around 275 lbs for a normal American.....:-) In a frontal collision, the most common, at only 50 km/h (31 mph) the European driver will weigh around 3 400 kg (7 480 lbs). The seat belt will halt the driver and easily handle this huge weight. Keep in mind that this is a collision at only 50 km/h. At higher speeds the forces are of course far far higher. Even at collisions at Autobahn speeds the belts are strong enough.

A car seat might weigh 10 kg, give or take a few kilos, with a child weighing maximum 25 kg rear facing. A child in a booster might weigh max. 36 kg plus weight of the seat which is almost always far less than 10 kg. As one can see the forces are not even comparable to the forces the belt must handle with an adult.

To find some official comment we actually have to look at US. Interesting since car seat safety there is like most other countries incredibly far behind. On top of that we also have the ridiculous legal system where people sue for anything and everything. From the Federal Register:

"The agency acknowledges that the CPST curriculum permits caregivers to twist buckle stalks in order to achieve a tight installation or to prevent buckles from resting against the entrance to the belt path, as long as the CRS and vehicle manufacturers both allow the practice. The agency has received data from Indiana Mills & Manufacturing, Inc. (IMMI) that indicates no considerable reduction in the strength of the seat belt webbing is observed if a flexible seat belt buckle is twisted three times; therefore, twisting the seat belt buckle three or less times is considered acceptable practice and is often necessary to achieve a tight fit. [39] The agency believes, however, that this practice is not well-known to the average parent or caregiver. In addition, many buckle stalks in the vehicle fleet cannot be twisted due to rigid plastic coverings. Some child restraints have higher belt paths than others, which can eliminate the need for twisting the seat belt."

In summary, twist your buckle stalk up to three full laps. Britax Max-Way, Britax Hi-Way and Axkid Minikid all work quite well as long as the Britax wedge also is used. The wedge will lift the seats higher off the vehicle seats.

Floor compartments is not an issue. Fill it with styrofoam or place a larger solid object on top of the compartment. VW is using styrofoam for their filler. Old phone books would for example work nicely. Or palce support leg on botton of compartment.

Without getting into too much details we clearly see that the floor in a vehicle isn't that solid even without compartments. To minimise weight and provide space for cables, wiring, etc the floor is like a Swiss cheese.

I don't want to offend but I would respectfully say that having a tight car seat budget at 200 GBP is extremely irrational and without logic. In the big scope of raising a child the amount of a car seat is nothing. A good rear facing car seat is the best life insurance available. We know this since traffic is the number one killer of young children in most countries.

Cut down on cigarettes, food, travel, vacations, clothing, cable TV, pub visits or pretty much anything else. No to mention that a car, even a used one, with insurance today cost lots of money. Placing a limit on a car seat is the absolute last thing one should do.

Lung · 17/03/2015 10:58

I agree with that last section. Putting a tight budget on something that protects the most precious thing you have seems nonsensical to me.

FloJo151 · 17/03/2015 14:29

Adventuredad Im actually quite offended by that last paragraph. We have already cut down on lots of things due to DH retraining at uni so money is very tight already hence the budget. Maybe I should just starve the family instead!
We are not smokers/drinkers, most clothes are 2nd hand, and holidays are to extended families caravan so just cost of food/petrol. Do not presume that everyone flitters their money away. The reason I am trying to find an erf is because im safety conscience. It would be much easier (and considerable cheaper) to just get a britax first class and have it forward facing as it has the alternate routing so there would be no buckle crunch.

in response to the seat belt buckle twisting I have emailed the in car safety centre who are specialists in car seat safety and they have said they would definitely NOT recommend this so I will copy and paste your response of research and see what they say to that.

Please have a think about how you respond to people because saying its the last thing you should do or that its nonsensicle imply's that the person you are speaking to doesnt really care about the safety of their child when actually not everyone can afford to spend loads on car seats.

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DuelingFanjo · 19/03/2015 11:32

"I don't want to offend but I would respectfully say that having a tight car seat budget at 200 GBP is extremely irrational and without logic. In the big scope of raising a child the amount of a car seat is nothing. A good rear facing car seat is the best life insurance available. We know this since traffic is the number one killer of young children in most countries."

You might have been trying not to offend but this is a very offensive thing to say. Some people cannot afford the cost of some car-seats. Period.

KeturahLee · 30/03/2015 10:46

I'd love to have a spare £200 lying around, but actually it's a choice between that and rent/food, not cigarettes and holidays!

Adventuredad · 01/04/2015 12:26

There is always a way to make it work and excuses don't help. Fact remains, trying to save money on a car seat is the last thing a parent should do. It should come after anything else but does unfortunately not. My suggestions include the phrase "pretty much anything else". That means dong whatever is necessary. Great if one is not smoking or having other poor habits. Find another way to save If a decent car seat can't be found then sell the car and use public transportation. Gas prices are today very "cheap" but a great and brand new car seat is still not more than a few tanks of gas.

Trying to save money on the number one killer of children, traffic accidents, is fine as long as nothing happens. In a collision at even a low 30 km/h a young child is likely to be seriously injured in a forward facing seat. Parents don't realise the enormous forces invited in accidents, even at low speeds.

If wish I could bring everyone to the crash test facility. After that there is never any talk about being cheap on car seats. Do you know the usual reaction from a mother who see a crash test in close proximity at only 50 km/h? They start crying. And it's only a dummy in the crash test rig, not a real child.

Spending lots of money on a good rear facing car seat is not necessary and also the best investment you can ever make. A more expensive seat is not necessarily better or safer. To save money select a seat which use belt installation since these are cheapest. These also have the higher 25 kg RF weight limit.

Cheapest great seats are Britax Two-Way and Britax Hi-Way. HW works well since it also uses a wedge to bring the seat higher off the vehicle seat. If you don't want to purchase a new seat then buy a used one. Just make sure it's not on Ebay etc. You must know history of the seat.

Or purchase a new seat, use it for three years or so and then sell it. You will get at least 100-150 Euros back if it's in good shape.

As you might know US isby far the most paranoid country in the world. The legal system also mean that people sue for anything and everything. You can be 100% certain that the seat belt is safe for twisting. Otherwise it would not be recommended.

I provided clear examples for the calculation of forces in the seat belt. These can of course be ignored just like the suggestion of not saving money on a rear facing car seat. But it would be a poor choice to do so.

DuelingFanjo · 01/04/2015 13:40

I think you are being very rude. I often hear this 'people who don't get the best rear facing seat are potentially hurting their children' crap along with that trite 'give up smoking, get a smaller TV' bollox.

As a child who was raised in very poor circumstances my parents would not have been able to afford a rear facing seat if they had been available at the time. Just because we are now in the naughties not the 70s it doesn't mean there aren't equally poor people in the UK who cannot afford the luxury of the kids of seats you want them to get. Yes they might have a car, to get them to the badly paid jobs that keep them afloat but that doesn't mean they are wasting money on other things nor does it mean that they are the position to pluck a few hundred pounds out of the air, particularly not if they have more than one child.

AliceMum09 · 01/04/2015 15:31

I agree with Adventuredad. A safe car seat is one of the only essential items you need for a baby. Most people spend over £200 on a pram, and will buy expensive play gyms, jumperroos, bouncy chairs etc, none of which are essential or could potentially save your child from serious injury or death.

Also, another idea is to ask for money towards a car seat for your baby's first birthday. I'm sure friends and relatives would rather do that and just buy the baby a 'little something' to open on the day (or just give them the box the car seat came in, children and babies love boxes!) than spend the money on a big toy. I know I would.

DuelingFanjo · 01/04/2015 15:55

"Most people spend over £200 on a pram"

do you really think so? Most people do?

DuelingFanjo · 01/04/2015 15:58

See - I am not talking about most people, I am talking about people who really do not have any money to spend on expensive car-seats so buy a different kind which still pass saftey tests in the UK and which are completely legal to use and buy but are just not giving that extra few percent in saftey.

These really poor people do exist and just because they are poor it doesn't mean they don't care about the safety of their children or ar not stretching themselves to the do the best they can. They do the best with what they get and being told that they are endangering their children's lives is wholly unfair when they are not doing anything illegal

ragged · 01/04/2015 17:50

The safest thing to do is to not have kids at all. This would save a lot of bother and zero risk.

UK already has the 2nd lowest death rate of children by traffic accident in developed countries Fire risk is the big concern in UK right now.

FloJo151 · 07/04/2015 21:37

You know what Adventuredad i had a whole spiel written out in response but its not even worth it! I know that I am doing the best I can to find a safe option despite what you may think.
There is no way i am going to trust some person on the internet who in trying to get his point across is being incredibly rude over someone who works for an independent rearfacing specialist company in the UK.

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Lung · 08/04/2015 07:02

If you look at it objectively he's not being rude, just forthright. What he's saying makes sense to me. Raising a child is estimated to cost over £100,000. Saving £100 on a car seat, the single most important safety item to protect the most precious thing in your life, seems to me to be false economy.

Sirzy · 08/04/2015 07:17

He is being rude. It's all well and good saying you shouldn't be on a budget for a car seat but then in the real world people have no choice. Unless someone can tell the op (and me!) how to magically make money appear!

Lung · 08/04/2015 12:58

You can't really say that in the real world people have no choice when they chose to have the child in the first place.

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2015 13:13

Life ain't that simple and people have kids when they can't really afford them all the time. Plus there are many many people raising kids on a lot less than the estimated £100,000.

When people make a choice to buy a cheaper but still saftey passed car-seat that is not rear facing they are not being neglectful or cruel or wasteful. They are choosing an legal and valid option that is within their price range.

Telling parents that they are endangering their child's life is not helpful for people who cannot afford the pricey rear facing seats.

Sirzy · 08/04/2015 13:18

Because everyone who has children has £500 or so sat not needed to buy a top of the range seat don't they!