RF and FF seat debate in DailyFail

[Hajdeby]

Don't see much about ERF in mainstream press so thought it was worth linking to for anyone interested: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2090574/One-seven-parents-children-risk-placing-forward-facing-car-seats-early.html

I was just about to post that link but you beat me to it

Sorry

That article states currently children must be rearfacing til 13kg/9 months - surely that is a lot heavier than a 9 month old? My 17 month old is only 10kg

OMG. A Daily Mail article which is actually (mostly) factually accurate, scare-mongering only when appropriate, and useful!!

Rita that is one of the inaccuracies - the advice is 20lbs and one year - so there is a chance that someone reading only the top of the article will pick that nugget of shite advice up. However, reading on, lots of good points made by people who know their stuff. Helena from www.rearfacing.co.uk has been campaigning for rear facing seats to be retailed and publicised here for years...

According to the World Health Organization growth charts for children under 2, the average 9-month-old boy weighs about 20 lbs (9kg). and is about 28.5 inches long with a 17.5-inch head circumference. The lowest percentile, which would indicate that a small baby boy is at 16 lbs. and 26 inches with a 16.75-inch head circumference.

So yes I agree 13 kg is much older

ds3 was 9kg at 5 months!

Yeah, I think at the moment the limit is 9 months before they can go FF (I could be wrong not looked into it in ages), but the baby seats usually are test approved up to 13kg.

I was in Mothercare about 2 weeks ago and I had to bite my tongue as an assistant explained to a set of grandparents that their 6 month old DGC was too young to FF. The GM replied (and I kid you not) 'but she is so alert for her age, I can tell she is going to be so bright, I think she must be so bored facing the back of the seat'. I don't understand why people are in such a rush to go FF {disclaimer: I know that some people struggle with DC that throw up if RF etc but thats not everyone!}

DD is 2yr 5m and only 10kg!

RF seats are much more widely available in the UK these days. You can order on line (e.g. at [http://incarsafetycentre.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/30]], and if you are not sure whether the seat will fit in your car, there are lists of retailers by UK region on www.rearfacing.co.uk or you can contact the Road Safety Officers at Essex County Council (details on the same website) who have a database of which seats work in which makes and models of cars. It's a shame people aren't more educated about them - but I guess we are all guilty of wanting to see our LOs hit the developmental milestones that make them seem like little people - and moving to a FF carseat is a bit like that IMHO.

incarsafetycentre.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/30

20lbs and 1 year is the law in most US states, it's not official guidance here. Law here is they must be 9kg, nothing on age. If they're on the 99th centile and hit 9kg at 4 months, it's legal :(

Official guidance is to keep them in the infant seat until they grow out of it but the only place I've ever seen this in an "official" capacity is on the RoSPA website about child seats, which most parents don't access. There were a mixture of old and new car safety leaflets in my children's centre, the old ones advising parents to turn their children FF when they could sit unsupported, I think the new ones were only printed when the law changed in 2003, so god knows why they still had even older ones than that, I guess nobody reads them. My health visitor told me when DS had his 9 month check that as he was over 9kg, it was unsafe to have him rear facing. I had to insist I knew he was still fine in his current seat, she looked dubious and then told me "Oh, you probably know what you're talking about since you had that car accident."

Most people I know seemed to turn them around at 9 months or so because that is the category the seats are sold for, despite the first seats being advertised for up to 12-15 months, and DS fitted in his until 18 months and he is 50th centile for height so pretty average.

I once asked for a HV to come and do a talk on car seats to a baby group I went to - she hadn't heard of rfing, ext. harnessing, had no idea even why children went in car seats really and she was the local HV team's car seat safety expert. Judging by her I guess the rest of them were rec. carrycots or a moses basket if money was tight......

I find the attitude towards FF seats quite baffling, but it is a question of information. Once you've seen the difference between FF and RF crash test results, you'd never put your toddler in a FF seat!

Well, you would if you can't afford one. FF better than no seat at all. No price on your child's life, etc, but if you don't have the means to even save up £200, it's not an option. I got a Kiddy seat which is great but I was lucky to be able to pay the £140 which the cheapest one was at the time, it was only because it was back when XP was still paying maintenance and I wasn't at uni, so no childcare costs.

Bertie Yes, its 9kg isn't it? Not 9 months - told you I hadn't looked at this in ages!

I agree that the cost of the RF seats is too high. I suppose the hope is that if they were more mainstream then there would be competition between shops and the prices would be more competitive. We saved up for ours for a while (and not everyone can do that) but we have over £500 worth of car seats sat in the car - thats way too much really when the equivalent in FF seats would be half as much.

If we can increase the demand than the price will fall because the manufacturers will spot a gap in the market. But we need to get the demand up by getting the message out. If every parent went into Mothercare, Halford and Argos and asked about ERF then the message would get back to the suppliers and the manufacturers.

Personally I think it is a national outrage that British children aren't being kept as safe as possible, mostly because parents are receiving poor and/or conflicting advice from the people that they trust to give the best service.

There is overwhelming evidence that rear facing to 4 years old is the safest for children, yet the Government, manufacturers and suppliers are dithering, and whilst they dither, children die.

Most people think 9 months because that's what they are sold as. "9 months to 4 years". IMO 9 months is ridiculously young to turn them. Most baby seats can be used at least until a year unless you have a monster baby anyway, and even then you can always get one of the convertible seats, like they have in the US.

I would have liked a better choice also, whilst we are very happy with the ERF seats we have I would have liked to have been able to try some of the others to see if they would fit in our car but we were limited to what our small, independent local shop had. I might have been able to get a better seat if they were stocked in more shops with more options. Its just not good enough really.

Then again, I get some pretty odd looks from people as my nearly 3 year old clambers into a RF seat, some other mums are quite bemused by it!
One mum at toddlers group said to me 'oh, is she still in a backwards seat, 'Florence' was out of hers before her 1st birthday' with a look of surprise on her face. arrrggghhhh.

BertieBotts, you're right, the RF seats are vastly more expensive, but coming down all the time. When we bought one 5 years ago, we paid £330 to import it, and they are now available from just under £200. If you think that a quality FF seat costs about £130, the difference is less than a couple of nights out or a new phone. Whilst this might still be prohibitive for people on low incomes, for many people this is affordable, and an acceptable cost when you consider the benefits. (They may well be able to reuse the seats for subsequent kids, or sell them on to friends).

The key is really information. Loads of people look askance at my 4 y.o. in his RF seat and ask why he is in a 'baby seat'. Hajdeby and Worldgonecrazy are right - the demand needs to be in place so that the major retailers step up to the mark.

Why don't MN run with this for one of their campaigns?

In fact, have just looked at Group 1 FF Carseats on line, and for the popular and highly rated models (e.g. Maxi Cosi Tobi, which scores well under Which? (but whose reviews mark down RF seats because fitting is supposed to be less straightforward) are retailing around the £200 too. If people are in the market for a new carseat, RF seats are now pretty competitive.

I really, really don't find my ERF seats hard to fit. I really don't and always make this face --> when that reason is given in articles and things.

If parents in other countries have the mental capacity to fit them safely, can't UK parents be trusted to do the same?,

My local shop showed me how to fit when I bought it, no problem. I guess buying online is different but it surely can't be beyond the wit of man, can it?!

Also another factor for me was at the time I was researching and buying a Group 1 seat, DS was 15/16 months old, I was starting to feel quite self conscious about still breastfeeding, I'd had all the flack about using slings, baby led weaning, DS still being in his first seat, I had just moved and had a new health visitor who was questioning my co sleeping, I was just so fed up with everything I chose (because I'd researched and spoken to people and it sounded like the best idea to me) being the "different" option, something to be questioned and poked at and I had no answer for except one which sounded like I was saying "Your decision was wrong" - I was exhausted by it.

I would definitely have found it easier if they were considered more "normal".

I'm stunned this is still an issue. My DD is nearly 13 and we knew back then (a) that babies simply do not have strong enough spines to contemplate turning them FF till at least a year and (b) RF is safer anyway, at whatever age. As my car was due to be changed anyway, DH insisted we got a Volvo - with no front airbag - as that was about the only way to get a stage 2 RF seat then.