lap belt to 3 point?

[jocie]

hi am thinking of buying a new car (zafira) but the middle seat is only a lap belt. We only have 2 lo at mo but are thinking of a 3rd. i want to covert the lap belt intop a 3 point one and when doing some research have come across this and wondered what other people thought about it here
Is it safe? would it work in a zafira given that it looks like the diagonal retracter anchorage point is in the floor behind the middle seat?
Failing this being any good if we do have any more lo's can you fit 3 car seats in the middle row? Am thinking prob not but what if it was a m c rodi one side, kiddy comfort other side and come kind of baby seat in middle (was thinking twe as i think this secures with just a lap belt)
Anyone got any ideas? I don't want to use the seats in the boot apart from occasional use. and don't want to have to sit in the middle myself as am not exactly small(nor is hubby).

some models of zafira have 3 full seatbelts in them,and some have a lapbelt in the middle,
prob worth looking into before you buy one.

my sister has a zafira,and its not any wider than a normal car really x

We are in exactly the same position for starters yes you can fit 3 car seats in ive tested 2 of the 2nd stage cars seats (9m-4y)... (although my ones are actually form birth to 4y) with a baby car seat (birth-9m) and this works and ive tested 2 of the 2nd stage car seats with one of those booster seats that has the back on it with the head support and this also works.

Regarding the 3 point belt i am about to phone up a company and ask them as we went to buy a 2003 vauxhall zafira yesterday and it only had a lap blet, as i am due our 4th baby in sep and my other 3 are 3, 2 and 1 i need to have 3 in the middle seats and 1 in the boot as i need to put one of the boot seats down for the double pushchair so need it to have a 3 point belt in the middle as the only one of mine i could put in the middle with just a lap belt would be my 3 year old in his booster seat and imagine what injusry he would get if i were to crash!!!!! so im not prepared to do this!

I will re-post on here when i get the answer to what reg and above it can be done in and what the cost is although im not thinking it will be cheap!

ok so i phoned up a vauxhall garage and they do not even do a replacement 3 point belt for a lap belt for a zafira so he said you'd have to go to someone who specialised in them, then he said the 2003 reg so im assuming 2003 and older do not even have the points i\n the car to fit a 3 point middle belt to so again the sort of metal loops would have to be welded into the boot of the car to attatch the seat belt too. i said i take it were talking hundreds here and he said yes. I then phoned up 2 other garages and they didnt do it and didnt knwo where i could get to do it but im still looking so will post if i get any more answers!

The only solution i can see is that my hubby has to sit in the back in the middle seat so i'll have my two eldest the 3 yr old and 2yr old in the boot as i think one would be bored on his own in the boot, my baby whos 1 in the middle at the edge and the newborn on the other edge, my hubby in the middle and the puschair in the front seat!

you could put a britax eclipse in the middle,as it fits with a lapbelt only.

how did you find that out as when i go onto the britax site i cant get that car seat up to check on whether it will fit in a zafira when i go on the fit finder?

its ok i went onto another site and in the description it says it can be fitted in with a 2 point seat belt.
so would solve my problem for 4 yrs after the baby is born as could have my eldest who will be 4 by then in boot seat in his booster with back on seat, my by then nearly 3 yr old in his normal britax birth-4y car seat on the edge, my 1 yr old in the middle in the new car seat you recommended (i actually have 2 of the birth -4 britax ones but wouldnt be able to start using that until baby was old enough) and the baby on the other edge in a baby car seat...then when the baby gets to say 1 any of the 3 in the back can go in any of the car seats as they will all be upto the age of 4!

Then when the baby hits 4 my eldest i wont be needing a double pushchair so cna have two in boot in boosters and full belts and 2 in middle in boosters too by then and full belts.
Brilliant thanks ever so much glad i posted on here now! do you know of any other seats that go with just a lap belt so i have a choice?

oh i havent tried it in a zafira,but i mean it can be fitted with a lapbelt only and also as jocie said - twe (TWO WAY ELITE) can be used from birth and can be fitted with only a lapbelt,too,so there are options.

but also worth looking at different models of zafira,as some have a full seatbelt in middle and some have a lapbelt,more to do with the spec of model,rather than the age of the car too.

if you already have a zafira,you could possbily buy a new back (middle) seat from a scrappy and fit it in so you would have a 3 point belt.

we thought that about getting a replacement middle chair but i didnt know if the actual seatbelt is purely in the chair alone or if when you install the new seat belt if it needs fitting to the car too (ie maybe it dangles out of bottom of seat and has to be hooked to something) when you fit the new seat? as this zafira has no points in to attach a 3 point seat belt.

But if the car seat says it fits with just a lap belt then it would surely deffinately fit no matter what the make of car? Thanks again for your help

i dont actually know about the seatbelt,as to whether the bottom of the belt would need bolted in.you could go on the vauxhall owners club/zafira owners club and they would probably be best to advise you,
clipse probably would fit so long as you dont have buckle crunch with it.halfords usually stock it so you could try it out there (personally wouldnt buy it there though as it was £50 dearer than kiddicare when we bought ours!)

ok i didnt have a clue what buckle crunch was, so i read up on it and although that has now left me with another panic incase my kids seatbelts flipping break i cant personally see how the buckle can be across part of the car seat base as if it was then it wouldnt be clipped in!!! as the buckle comes through the back of the car seat and down the side to clip in the other part of the belt, but thanks for letting me know.

I have a Ford S-Max which has 3 3 point belts in the middle row of seats and the rear boot seats also have 3 point belts.

However, it also states that car seats are not to be used in the rear row of seats in the boot so you may want to check that before buying any car with the extra boot seats.

Also remember that the boot seats are the least safe seats in the vehicle.

lucy - if your worried you could pop to halfords/mothercare and get them to try the eclipse in and also check the seats you already have are fitted correctly,you dont have to make an appointment or anything, just pop in x

I didnt know that about not being able to put car seats in a boot seat, bit stupid really isnt it i mean the whole point you buy a 7 setaer car is because you need more than the normal 5 seats and lets be fair how many people actually buy a 7 seater to put kids older than car seat age in them? most people would be buying one who have youngish kids as you wouldnt really go putting say 14-15 yr old in as theirs not enough leg room!

However as ive typed this ive just thought that earlier when i went on the britax website and typed in the type of car seat i already have it came up that they could be strapped into the front passenger, back two side ones and boot ones! so even if the car seat fits but its a rule that you cant put them in the boot of a zafira i would have thought it would have come up with a cross like it did for the middle lap belt seat! and said although these can be strapped in securely your not allowe dot put them in boot seats?

Also i know boot seats arent the safest but when your going to have 4 children like me aged 4, 2, 1 and newborn other than leaving one at home!!!!
i have no choice!!

yes i will do that thanks, im always worried about whether the car seats are strapped in tight enough when i put the kids in them i spend ages tightening them up climbing in the car putting my weight into the seat then yanking the seatbelt!

lucy - soupdragon was just saying that in her car (c-max) its unsafe to put a child seat in the boot.
all cars are not like that though.althought i do know that a renult scenic you cant fit a child seat in the middle of the back seat due to the way the 3 point belt in the middle comes down from the roof.

in the zafira,there are limited seats (group 1 esp,which wont fit into the rear seats)i know an evolva 1-2-3 does,but several dont.

when you fit a carseat its recommended that you put your weight on the carseat to tighten the belt :)

That is not what I was saying at all, Sazm. I was saying that my S-Max states that child car seats are not to be used in the rear boot seats and that boot seats are the least safe seats in the vehicle.

A Zafira is not a 7 seater. It is a 5+2 which is not the same. As I understand it, the boot seats are meant as occasional seats. Mine are for bringing occasional extra children home from school. I would absolutely not put a small child in the rear boot seats. Never.

The boot normally acts as a rear crumple zone so anyone sitting in the boot seats is actually sitting in the rear crumple zone. In the event of a rear shunt, this is not good.

If you need a seven seater, buy a proper seven seater.

soupdragon - thats what i said!!!the same as you.that your car manual - smax (not cmax as i said) says not to use child seats in the boot,
as does the renult scenic,but in the scenic it also states you shouldnt use one in the middle of the rear seat!

TBH its a problem with most 7 seaters,whichever type,the rear seats are all so close to the back seat,so in the event of a rear impact the seats are going to be hit first,but in theory its the same as saying that the rear middle seat is the safest due to the possibility of a side impact also,but thats fine if you only have one child!

oh great talk about making me feel worse soup dragon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would NEVER put my childrens lives at risk as no sain person would, but as i said other than leave 1 at home alone where theirs a risk of them strangling themselves, burning to death in a fire, falling down stairs and breaking their neck, jumping out a window, burning themselves on the cooker...the list is endless, i think i'd rather take my chances with putting one in the boot seat driving down a 30 mph road for 1 mile to take them to nursery and then school and then risking it when i was to pick them up then taking the risk of leaving them in the house (which before you say why would you leave them in the house alone..of course i wouldnt im using it as an example)

But what do you mean by a proper 7 seater? you mean like a van or minibus???? as i dont know what other 7 seaters their is
Also you say you would absoloutely not put a child in the boot seats never...so why did you buy a 5+2 seater then? if you have no intention of using the back 2 seats why not buy a 5 seater? as the boot when the 2 boot seats are down are no bigger than a 5 seater car!

I also agree with what sazm said that if your car were to be hit side on then it would probably not be my children that were in the boot that would suffer as much as my child that was in that side seat that got hit!!!!!!!!!! so it depends what type of crash you have as to who sustains the injurys!
I know you can have a crash anytime anywhere but i dont do motorway driving so thats really the speed of a 90 mph car hitting the back ruled out! most i do is take my son to nursery and back which is 1 mile theire and 1 mile back as when i do food shopping etc they would stay home with my hubby.

I dont mean to sound rude by anything ive worte but im very protective of my children and if anybody dares try to make out that i am an irresponsible mother intentional or not i will immeadiately jump on the defensive! and i deffinately do feel like your criticising me for considering putting 1 of my children in a boot seat!!!!!....their are ways of saying things and i think your just damn right rude and insulting to both me and Sazm, surely it would be more irresponsible of me if i were to keep a 5 seater car and have 1 child loose in the back seat sitting on another ones lap as its not that often you have a big smash (ive personally not had 1 in 9 years) nor my hubby in 12! but i must say i do a lot of hard breakig when idiots pull out or dont stop at round abouts which is when my loose child in the back would get hurt!

At the nd of the day you mainly find that those quick to judge others on their childrens safety/parenting are the ones who actually need to take a look at themselves.
You obviously brought your 5+2 seater for a reason and i dont think it was to just look at the 2 back seats now was it!

I said I would never put a small child in the boot. They are more vulnerable.
My car has side airbags and front airbags. It does not, to my knowledge, have boot airbags. Thus the boot is by far the least safe spot. A side impact is unlikely to be limited to the airbagged centre portion of the car. As far as I am aware, the boot area has no protection at all.

Please tell me where I was quick to judge other people's parenting, because I can't see it. I said what I would do, I didn't say "You'd have to be bloody stupid/a shit parent to do differently to me" did I? If you wish to infer that from what I said [shrug] that's not my problem really is it? It's not what I meant nor what I said.

As I explained before, I bought a 5+2 because I occasionally need to bring an extra child home from somewhere. That's why I didn't buy a proper 7 seater. If I wanted more than the standard 5 seats all the time I would buy a car that was fit for that purpose - in the case of Ford that would have been the Galaxy or my child minding friend has a Nissan Serena and had a Toyota Lucida, both 8 seaters IIRC. Also, the boot of my S-Max with the 2 seats down is considerably bigger than that of an ordinary 5 seater so I was able to fit 3 children, the dog and all our Christmas luggage in the car without someone having to have their feet on a bag or my parents coming up the week before to fetch the presents.

Oh, and when bringing any extra children home, it is mine (the older 2) who get put in the boot seats. I am able to make the decision/risk assessment for my own children, I would not presume to do so for others.

ok maybe i read too much into it as a mother you will know how protective you are of your own children and if you feel someone is having a dig at you, when you know you would do everything in your power to ensure your childrens safety at all times you will automatically jump on the defensive which is what i did so i appologise for that! as you obviously were just trying to advise me!

Regarding the ford galaxy i did not realise that this was a proper 7 seater i thought it was the same as a zafira...so equally unsafe, is a galaxy better than a zafira then?
could i put one of mine in the boot seat and feel safer doing it.....to be fair aswell my by then 4 yr old would only be sitting in the boot seat at the weekend if ever we went somewhere as a family with my hubby as in the week its just me and the boys (so the oldest would have to go in the front with the airbags off so although not as safe as the middle safer than the boot!) as hubby works 8am-6 then teaches in the evening and to be fair only place we go as a family at the weekend is swimming or nipping to my mum and dads! and now youve made me aware of how unsafe the boot is then either me or my hubby would have no choice but for that small trip to sit in the boot seat!

Having seen a three car shunt on tv where the only casualty was a six year old girl sitting in the middle rear seat whilst restrained by a lap belt, I was concerned as to the wisdom of placing my two little monsters in the rear of our Toyota Hi-Ace based 4X4 camper van, as it only has lap belts in all five rear seating positions. Medical concerns regarding the girl's injury were crushing of organs and potentially internal bleeding (very difficult to determine at the scene) if the lap belt had been passing across here stomach at the moment of impact. The second scenario was that the lap belt had been across her hips/pelvis. The pelvis is probably the most life threatening bone in one's body to break as all your tubes pass through it. It can cause an undetectable arterial haemorrhage. Game over quite quickly!!!
I poured over various solutions for hours... days... weeks... Even to the extent of buying a different camper. But I was smitten. The kids would have to go! Unless a solution came to the fore.
Their 'Newborn To Three Years' seats performed admirably while only secured via lap belt. Even when simulating a crash by throwing a box of half eaten KFC around the cabin. The problem would have disappeared into the ether had the little tykes stopped growing at that stage. I considered stopping feeding them in order to inhibit their growth until it was pointed out that it was probably illegal, even though it would have saved me an awful lot of money. Ponderings abounded.
More net surfing drew me to the conclusion the the USA is shoppers heaven on earth as everything is available. A line that should be incorporated into their national anthem.
My main criteria was a seat that secured a child as far into his/her development regarding size and weight as possible, while still utilising the five point harness integral to the seats design. A seat that could be secured by virtue of a lap belt alone right through stages 1-2-3. A seat that had no fulcrum between the seat pad and the upright back section so's not to fold in half during a head on collision. There's a good reason why the captains of crash landing airliners insist that the passengers adopt the 'Brace' position when approaching the runway. It's so's to pre-empt the momentum of your body mass folding you in half in a violent manner as you have already performed the manoeuvre to avoid smashing your face to pieces as it hits your knees should you be stupid enough to still be sipping a G&T at the point of impact.
To my disappointment, such a seat seemed not to exist. At least not in the UK. Most appear to rely on a shoulder strap being present after the age of 4ish. To my further discontent, the mighty 'BRITAX' in their infinite wisdom, don't sell their entire range this side of the pond. However, the epiphany arrived in the form of the DRUM ROLL PLEASE 'BRITAX FRONTIER 85'. Check the spec. for yourselves online. It ticks all my boxes, and I'm as "Belt 'N' Braces" a chap as you'll ever trust with your kids safety. We've also enough lifejackets to use as stepping stones, let alone having to wear one. But that?s another story.
The first Frontier 85 arrived yesterday from Kentucky in ten days. Around £140.00 to buy, £97.00 delivery, and David Cameron had to have £56.00 of my hard earnt wedge in the form of import duty so he could afford a gold plated bib with which to wipe his dribbling wet lower lip. You'd think as there is no VAT on kid?s cloths, they'd be a little more lenient when It came to child safety equipment. Especially as there was nothing remotely close in spec. available in this over taxed rip off Britain.
The second is on its way from Brooklyn New York as I write.
To anyone who has no other option than a rear central lap belt, having exhausted the possibility of finding a factory fitted mounting point located behind the rear seats somewhere beneath the carpet in the boot/trunk/load space/wedding cake receptacle. What price safety... If there's a cheaper alternative in the UK, I'd love to hear it.
The camper has no such options other than to "Bite the Bullet" on price. I'm sure if demand was substantial, a few hundred E-Mails to Britax would go a long way to persuading them to import the Frontier 85 to our shores. After all, they do owe us a favour for joining WWII late.
Cars with Zero Street Cred to avoid... Zafira. Galaxy. Anyhthing built by the French. Unless of course they have central rear three point harness'.
Google the Frontier. It's pricey. Yet a lot less than a new car.
I trust it's OK for blokes to post on MUMSNET, I wouldn't want to upset any 'Greenham Common Lesbians'.
Any questions regarding any aspect of my ramblings, feel free to ask.
Later.
Eddie