Advice re 'chomper' and supply...

[NumptyMum]

I'm struggling to breastfeed DD who is 11 days old; having fed DS until he was over 2 (stopped last autumn) I never thought I would have the same pain as with him - but I do, and it's really getting me down. Midwives are still visiting and DD has been observed to be a 'chomper', she is very strong (has some head control and vice-like arms which have to be swaddled out the way) and even though my latch is now OK, my nipples can still get very 'squished' ie they are flattened when I take her off (she rarely lets go even after 40 mins).

Anyone else have this? When do I get to see light at the end of the tunnel? I've bought nipple shields, I know they are not recommended but it is either that, expressed milk from bottle or formula because otherwise I am crying/swearing in agony. However even the nipple shields don't stop the chomping pain.

Also my supply on one side has dropped. Early bad positioning meant that my nipples have been cracked and bleeding so I was advised to rest them and express (time consuming but supply was OK at that point); but then an inflamed duct on one side meant I had to feed direct to clear it and was then so painful I had to rest it again. At that point the supply to that side seems to have dropped, as I couldn't time getting expressing done with everything else going on.

Any tips for how I can get it back? Will it come back again OK? I can get some milk from it, but nothing like the supply from the other breast.

Support appreciated... feeling pretty low here. Dreading next feed.

Poor you - what anightmare

Do you nfeel you have enough support? Is your eldest at nursery?

I can tell you that my daughter sounds like what you've described above and she and I got better.

Keep at it - more than likely it will be better and be worth it

Thank you mumble - yes DS is at nursery 2.5days per week, and luckily DH can be home to look after him the days he's not at nursery next week.

However I wish there were a qualified breastfeeding counsellor who could advise me on this - the midwife has been great, but when I went to my local breastfeeding support group the health visitor, while being perfectly nice, just said it looked like I had a good latch, that I didn't look like I was in too much pain (to be fair, I wasn't as it was earlier in the day and from my good boob) and that I was only 8 days post-partum. Which didn't give me any practical help at all!

I'm glad you say that things have improved with your daughter. I think I have to persist with/through the pain because if I just express, my boobs aren't getting toughened up. However after a day of feeding (and just feeding 30mins one side, 20mins the other) expressing and resting seems the more attractive option for tonight.

Does/did your DD get blistered lips? Perhaps this is something all bf babies get, but I certainly notice it more with DD than with DS I think, though his lips blistered too.

Anyway, thank goodness she is quiet just now. Off to get DS from nursery...

Feels like someone has been using a blunted pair of childrens scissors on my boobs just now. Wonder if Ibuprofen will help?

mine did that - absolute agony for a couple of weeks and my nipple turned white at the tip too and was all burny.

Expressing made things much much worse painwise for me as it was too harsh on my poor tender nipples.

I've still got a little chomper baby and I've still got a callous on my left nipple but now at 15wks everything's so much better and nothing hurts - without me doing anything about it particularly. Lansinoh helped heal my nipple.

What worked for me to ease the pain was to alternate positions so the baby's jaws met at different places on my nipple IYSWIM. Eg holding baby in traditional cradle hold one feed, then holding baby sitting upwards another feed, then rugby hold for the next feed - meant that the same places on my nipples weren't squashed all the time.

Also maybe you could try calling the NCT bf helpline if you can't get any RL help? You don't have to be a member and they really helped me.

Oh and for the supply issue, fenugreek capsules from holland and barratt along with lots of feeding worked wonders for me (I took about 12 a day IIRC and it worked wonders - made me smell funny though!)

Thanks for the info re fenugreek! Will look into that in our local healthfood shop tomorrow. Thanks also for suggestion to alternate positions - I'm using rugby hold on one side as my left hand just isn't quick enough to get her latched on in the seconds her jaw is open, but I've never tried an upright hold. I did ring the NCT, they were helpful but there isn't a trained counsellor in my area unfortunately.

Better go, life calls...

Have you heard about biological nurturing? Have a look here for info

Her head bobbing and arm waving are instintive behaviours to help her get herself to the breast and latched on by herself. Babies very often get a better latch if they self attach rather than being hindered by swaddling or positioning.

Look out for feeding cues (head bobbing, sticking tongue out, arm/leg waving) and try lying her on your chest with you in a comfortable reclined position as soon as you see any of these. Hopefully she can self attach and it won't be so painful.

Good luck and let us know how you get on if you get a minute.

Nurofen might well help - I was taking it for my c-section pain but found that the breastfeeding pain was much less intense after I'd taken it.

Thanks for all the replies.

Will take some Nurofen just now.

I'll try the biological nurturing again tomorrow morning; I tried letting her latch herself on earlier in the week but she didn't take in enough breast so it wasn't a success - however perhaps I wasn't lying back enough. I'm trying not to swaddle her unless she's too frantic - in which case it seems she'd rather eat her own fists . I know I shouldn't let her get to the frantic stage but sometimes it's because I've had a couple of tries at latching on that haven't worked, and sometimes she's fallen asleep while feeding, I've put her down, and then she's suddenly realised the supply has stopped...

In the meantime, this evening I tried switching position on the most sore side and I think that helped.

I'll get there somehow - I hope. It's the overnight feeds that hurt most though, not sure why but probably because I'm more tired.

Nurofen here i come!

Joined just so I could offer some support

I had a horrible time breastfeeding, and struggled on with mangled nipples for weeks. I was fed up with everyone telling me DS had a good latch and that it would get better at X weeks. The HV at my local BF group wasn't much help.

Turned out DS had a posterior (type 4) tongue-tie, which is not that easy to diagnose. If you Google it, you can find a list of symptoms which includes nipple trauma (often described as lipstick-shaped nipples - basically a wedge). Tongue-tie is not that uncommon, so it's worth getting checked by someone who knows what they are looking for. My GP missed it even though he was looking for it specifically.

DS finally had his TT snipped at 11 weeks (took a couple of mins), by which time breastfeeding wasn't quite as painful as his mouth was a bit bigger, and he had managed to compensate a bit. It took me a while to find a doctor who would do it though. There was a slight improvement straight away, and now (15 weeks) there is no pain at all.

I don't know if this is any help, but you've done so well managing this far - I remember how painful it can be! I used to dread DS waking up to feed

Also, blistered lips are common with newborns, but can also be a TT symptom.

Finally, I feel like it's my mission to spread the word - Lansinoh is not only brilliant, it's available on prescription.

Thanks Browneyes - DD is sleeping just now but I'll try to see if her tongue is at all restricted when she wakes.

However after various advice, feeds last night and this morning were less painful - although I'm not sure if I'm storing up problems for next feeds or not. Letting her have more of a say in how she latches on means she doesn't take in nearly as much breast so the latch actually doesn't 'look' so good. However it didn't feel any more sore, and she didn't chomp. So who knows... She didn't take to the 'lying down' biological nurturing though, she did latch on initially but kept pulling away - I think because she just couldn't breathe properly. She was happier when on her side, probably because she's more used to it.

So - will check for tongue tie (mw checked for normal tongue tie but will ask about it at next visit). Will continue to take Ibuprofen for the next couple of days. Will alternate positions; and will allow DD to take her time latching on if she doesn't just wake into 'frantic' feeding mode. Milk supply already seems to have improved, but will also get fenugreek capsules.

I have a plan of action! Thanks all

And Browneyes - I'm really glad the TT was diagnosed in your DS, breastfeeding is so nice when it is finally working

I could of written your post in the talus days, on fact I think I did. Ds now 16 weeks and going a lot better apart from a sore day here and there when I become complacent with the latch. I'm not a 'natural' bfer by any means but I am determined.

I too swore through feeds and bit my lip etc, was absolute agony and felt like someone was sawing off my nipples with a rusty saw.

It does get better, for me after a few weeks.

Things that helped for me were

Painkillers (I see you're doing that)
Lansinoh after every feed
Taking it one feed at a time
Seeing a good lactation consultant (I appreciate there isn't one in your area)
Using an exagerrated latch , this means holding your breast between thumb and forefinger with thumb on top and finger out of the way of the nipple. You don't lift the breast just use your thumb to press just above the nipple so that it tilts back, you bring baby to breast and make sure they have a good open mouth, then latch them on making sure the nipple goes under their top lip right at the last second and remove your thumb.

This tip alone saved my breastfeeding, takes a little practice but it means baby gets a good mouthful and feeding was less painful for me instantly even on my 'bad' side.

Good luck, it's so hard and you're doing so so well!

Oh and another tip I've got (gleaned from NCT breastfeeding counsellor when I phoned up in a panic myself) is really don't worry too much about getting a apot on textbook perfect latch. The baby's not read the textbooks and you don't get points for style!

If it doesn't hurt and you're getting plenty of wet / dirty nappies and baby seems bright, alert etc then the latch is right for you no matter if it seems "perfect" or not.

Thanks again - unfortunately after things going better this morning, the afternoon feed was more painful on both sides. Perhaps because I'd not taken Ibuprofen, but given my baby brain I'm worried about overdosing as I can't remember when I've been taking them. Also, after googling about tongue tie, I see it's sometimes mentioned in conjunction with a high palate. I don't know whether DD has this or not, but my DH does have a high palate so there is that possibility - and one I'd already been wondering about. Nowt that can be done about it though...

I'll speak to the mw on Monday, and ask her if there's a consultant who might be able to help me further with this.

For now, I'll express again to start DD off for next feed and make her less frantic (she was frantic at last feed despite me lifting her on first sign of waking). Will also try the exaggerated latch - I do shape the breast, but trouble is DD doesn't open mouth, she chomps; so timing is very tricky, particularly when I'm flinching about putting breast anywhere near her . I know breastfeeding can be lovely, I hate this stage, and I hate that my DS will pick up on it being agony for me as I don't like him to think that her feeding from me is a bad thing.

Sigh.

Oh poor poor you. What about taking ibuprofen and paracetamol together? - you can do this and it gives extra pain relief.

Sounds like you need some specialist advice. You said NCT was not available, but how about trying one of these?

association of brestfeeding mothers counsellor helpline:
08444 122 949

la leche league UK helpline:
0845 120 2918

If you can afford to pay for help, you can find a lactation consultant / private tongue tie divider here:

www.lcgb.org/consultants_local.html

I really hope you are able to get the help you need.

Oh dear - I'm sorry to hear it's painful again It's great that you're persevering

Yes, tongue-tie & a high palate are related - it's to do with the way the the palate forms in the womb. If the tongue is bunched up in the baby's mouth, it causes the palate to develop a high spot. With DS, his tongue looked fine to me, and he could even stick it out a bit, but apparantly he couldn't move it correctly while feeding.

I know your latch looks fine, but if your nipple is being compressed then something is definitely wrong.

I hired a lactation consultant in as a last resort after my GP's only suggestion was that I should switch to formula (DS was 6 weeks). The LC was excellent; she had a few new positions for me to try (anything that uses gravity to help baby's tongue fall forwards), and was the one who spotted his tongue-tie.

As suggested above, La Leche League are v. helpful. Their website (www.laleche.org.uk) has loads of info, and you can also see if they have a group near you.

I took paracetamol and the diclofenac that the hospital sent me home with after DS was born - I checked with my GP, who said it was fine. I also expressed when I needed a break.

I hope your midwife can suggest someone to help, because you're right - it is lovely when it works.

Fingers crossed for you

Forgot to mention, my ds also chilies. What also helped was holding him behind his shoulders/ bottom if beck and not holding back of head. This allowed head to flop back and made it more likely he'd open wide. It is very difficult at first to get the timing when they chomp, you can do it though, don't lose hope!

Additon help line's

National Breastfeeding helpline on 0300 100 0212. Lines are open 9.30am -9.30pm.

BfN Supporterline: 0300 100 0210

BfN may also have a local drop in near you
www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/support-centres.html

Thanks again all - update, I gave up on the Medela nipple shields and got some Avent ones; I've only tried them once but they make SUCH a difference. I used them on the sore side and was able to feed without pain; then I latched her onto the less sore side without them and fed OK from that side (though nipple still gets squashed it's getting more used to it now...).

So at this point I think I'll be able to get through this - I'll use the shield when I have to; swap positions and let her 'self latch' as much as I dare; use painkillers and lansinoh; and check for tongue tie and high palate. I've also found a La Leche League group in my area (no BFN or lactation consultants though) so hopefully I can see someone in the next week if things don't improve.

I think DD and I are going to manage this, somehow!

Great to hear things seem to be getting better for you both!

So glad you've found something that helps! Hope it gets better very soon.

Hi. Glad things are going better for you. I am experiencing the exact same problems you describe (DD is 3 weeks + 2) but I fear I am less determined as I am very close to packing it in. DD has taken to refusing the breast altogether on many occasions which just adds to the many difficulties. Dreading each and every feed, even dreading her waking up, is just too much for me to bear.

I hope you continue to have more success.

NumptyMum - while I think of it, can I ask why you switched from Medela to Avent nipple shields? I'm using Medela at the moment, the contact ones, and I'm finding it nearly as painful with as without. The chomping/bruising feeling is still there throughout the feed, plus they're completely massive. What makes the Avent ones better?