Balancing the mother's and child's needs in the breastfeeding relationship.

[suiledonne]

I've been thinking a lot about how to do this in the last few days.

My almost 20-month old dd2 has always been an enthusiatic feeder and lately she has picked up the pace again and is feeding a lot during the day and at night and I am exhausted.

I want to night wean her and have made a few attempts. Nothing is working. If I refuse a feed she gets incredibly upset. So far I have been unable to settle her again without a feed so have relented and I know this sends the wrong signals - I feel like I am upsetting her for no positive outcome.

Last night I fed her to sleep as usual. When she she woke (co-sleeping) I fed her again but she just wanted to stay latched on and on. I can't sleep when she is feeding as she is constantly pinching me, kneading the boob, clamping down with her teeth etc. She seemed to be asleep so I popped her off the boob and she immediately went mad. Crying, screaming, trying to pull up my clothes.

I tried to console her and calm her down to no avail. She was so loud she woke up DH and dd1 sleeping in another room. DH came in and said he would handle it. He ended up giving her a bottle. She went to sleep for 20 mins and woke up hysterical again. For the sake of everyone I gave in a fed her (it was 3am) and fed her on and off in the night.

The days after we have tried this she has been very clingy in the day and demanding more feeds so it is obviously affecting her.

She has been breastfed on demand all her short life. It is all she knows. Part of me wonders if it is even acceptable to try to take that away from her. Or is it overthinking it to feel like that? She eats well, is very loved and well cared for so all her needs can be met without the breastfeeding.

On the other hand the contant lack of sleep, feeding on demand all night etc is wearing me down. This is having a negative affect on my ability to function during the day.

DH and I are sleeping in seperate beds most of the time which I didn't mind when she was younger but I am starting to resent now.

I would love to have a night out with DH but feel under pressure to be here when dd2 wakes.

I am so physically and mentally exhausted I can't think my way through this. DD1 self weaned at 11 months and I foolishly thought this would happen again.

Any words of advice or support or experiences for me?

Or do I need a stern talking to?

Thanks for reading.

i can't give you any advice on the weaning as I stopped feeding at 7 months but wanted to say I don't think you are being unreasonable in wanting to get a bit of your life back now.

Having you exhausted and resentful (it has almost been 2 years!) is not the way forward. Good luck with it and I am sure someone more helpful will be along but could you try sleeping in a different room to her for a couple of nights (so your DH settles her) and loses the night feeding association?

Hi Suiledonne not able to give you advice or a talking to I'm afraid but can definately sympathise! Am in a similar position with my 8month DS. He is still BFing on demand day and night (seems to take more milk at night / CoSleeping for most of the night and eating well in the day).

Most of his contemporaries were put on to formula at 6month and seem to be sleeping through.

Am going to have to go back to work in October so thinking about how to stop the night feeding and hope this will help him to sleep through. (Not up for CC however)

It's so hard to imagine changing things as feeding him to sleep and then feeding lying down through the night has always seemed to give all concerned the most sleep. But everything must change I suppose.

Sorry to bang on about my experience, your post just struck a chord. Any practical advice from Mums who have made this transition would be really great....

have a read here

I did this with dd at 18m ish but I had stopped daytime feeds already (by distracting with drink / snack / cuddle as appropriate) so it wasn't such a big leap

Thanks for the replies.

MrsBadger I have seen that link before and tried it but I wasn't sure how to apply it. When Dr. Gordon says for the 3 first nights feed when the child wakes but make sure he does not fall asleep on the breast I had a problem. DD stirs and cries out for a feed, I feed her lying down in bed so if I let her latch on straight away she doesn't fully wake up. I wasn't sure how to manage this stage. Should I stop feeding her lying down and sit up with her - then she might wake more and I could put her back down awake?

I am a bit confused by it (probably from lack of sleep)

mumma and susie Thanks for the sympathy. I get very little in real life as I think most people I know think this is all my own fault.

suiledonne - ohhhhh, you have bags of sympathy and empathy from me! My DD is 18 months and has just emerged from a feeding frenzy. I think it coincides with teething.

I would take a slightly different approach: maybe attempting to 'improve' (??) her feeding 'manners'? This part stood out for me: "I can't sleep when she is feeding as she is constantly pinching me, kneading the boob, clamping down with her teeth etc." That's something you can work on in the day, too; remove her from the breast if she pinches or bites (actually, I found pressing her in against my boob was a less painful way to stop biting) and slowly get her used to the idea that if she feeds, she can't abuse your poor breasts.

Then you can sleep again ... ?! I think it can work if you can sleep through it.

Although I get your point re wanting your self back. I'm in a very similar situation to you.

it's hard isn't it? i wonder if she has been feeding more due to the hot weather?

I feel a lot like you when you say it seem unfair to take away this comfort that has always been there and is what she knows, but I also know that in the middle of the night, when you're so tired you just want to lay down and never get up... that goes out of the window

breastfeeding is a beautiful thing, but it HAS to be mutually enjoyable for you and your child

it's a fantastic source of comfort, as you know, but that doesn;t mean it can't be replaced by other forms of comfort which can be just as good

have you thought about letting her sleep with DH? perhaps you could feed her to sleep in his bed and then he just stays the night with her?
she may make a bit less fuss if you aren't htere at all, and perhaps he can give her a bottle and then just settle her by cuddling etc?

have you looked at the jay gordon site?

oh and agree totally with feeding manners

ahh i see you've reaad the jay gordon thing too

i would maybe allow her to wake more before you offer the breast, then just unlatch her as she's getting sleepy, but before she has finished

if she cries then feed again, but take off... etc etc

might take a few nights to get her to actually fall asleep off the boob but it might work!

this is one of the techniques in the no cry sleep solution too, which we used for ds2 with some success.
i think there is a toddler version of it too, tho the baby one might deal better with the breastfeeding at night issues?

Suiledonne I know exactly what you mean about people thinking it is your own "fault" and my son is only 8months! Since becoming a mum for the first time I have been truly quite shocked by how many people don't believe that BFing and cuddling to sleep or co-sleeping is the most natural choice for babies - for as long as it feels right for you as the mother to do so. I am very impressed by anyone who can keep this kind of mothering up for a year or more in a society that appears to think that babies should just fit in with the lives of adults and not cause any disruption. So well done you!

Mrs B thanks for the link it looks really interesting.

Sorry for the rant but it's an issue that's been bugging me and I think Mums like Suiledonne should be applauded and supported.

mummamango... the trick is not to tell anyone

of course, that doesn't help when you just want to have a bit of a rant at a friend at how many times you've been up in the night, but in general y'know... no-one really needs to know

Quite. I don't advertise the fact anymore, either.

Me: "Ooh, I am tired. Madam fed about 14 billion times last night."
Rest of World: "Yes, well, you are a self serving freak who is determined to artificially prolong the baby stage and hold her back from acquiring the natural independence that comes from drinking cows' milk and crying alone in the dark. Frankly, a bit of sleep deprivation is the very least you deserve."

I may be paraphrasing In fact, I don't even feel that strongly about anyone else's objections (or what anyone else does etc etc), but it was quite a release, articulating exactly my paranoia suspects is behind the faintly appalled looks

I have been through this. In the end my DH had her all night and offered a drink of milk in a cup instead.

I will be honest, it was really really hard and he didn't get much sleep for a few days. But -I- we thought that was fair enough as I had been feeding half the night for such a long time.

I know exactly what you mean about being too tired to think things though. I think the key thing is to have a plan and stick to it. I am not underestimating how hard it is to do, but I reminded myself that DH WAS there, she WASN'T being abandoned, she WAS being comforted, just not by me.

lol Druzhok
how true

I have the same issues with my 18mo DS, and a similar lack of sympathy for my broken nights - they must be my fault because I am still feeding him

If DH has him away overnight he still wakes, but will settle with cuddle/dummy. He will not let me settle him without a feed, because he knows it's me. Teething here too, big teeth, but he's only slept through 3 times this year (by accident I think)so rubbish all the time really.

I love that we are still feeding but really, the night feeds, piss me off now. I want to feed til he self weans but at 1am, and 4am, and 5 am, I want him to never feed again, being so tired just makes me quite cross. We have pinching, and scratching here too. Sorry no advice, just lots of sympathy here.

But one day, they will sleep through regularly. And it will be lovely

I have been through this too with DS, can definately sympathise too. I found the wanting to sleep latched on pretty much stopped as soon as his back teeth were through at around this age. He sleeps through the night lovely now, you will get there ((hugs))

xposts moaningminniewhingesagain !!

They do and it is REALLY lovely. DS recently self weaned, was lovely too

Got to gear myself up for the long haul again with DD, 5mo! ZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

Thanks for all the sympathy - I need it right now.

Druzhok WRT the feeding 'manners'. I have really tried with this. I take her off the boob EVERY time she starts with the pinch, knead routine but it doesn't seem to help at all. She goes right back to it again. She is a cheeky monkey - she has the best personality - she really is my sunshine but she knows how to test my patience too and does it with a cheeky smile.

thisisyesterday I am very tired this evening after a bad night last night so I am going to take the easy way out tonight and try your suggestion tomorrow night. Dr. Gordon does seem the way to go. At least he is pro-breastfeeding and co-sleeping so is coming from a similar place.

moaningminnie It helps to know I'm not alone (I'm sure this is no comfort to you though )

mummango Thank you for your rant - the support is lovely.

My best friend has a 3 week old baby. She is bottle feeding on a 4 hour routine - I am awake more in the night than she is . I don't tell her that though - just give her plenty of support and a shoulder to cry on. The early weeks are hard no matter how much sleep you are getting.

humphrey DH is willing to try and settle her for a few nights but I don't feel strong enough to step back and let her be upset. I am seriously contemplating going to the doc and asking for a few sleeping pills to get me through it.

Good to hear there is hope

I am so chuffed that BF has gone so well, but the broken nights are so horrible. I mean, broken nights at 6, 12 months I expect.

At 18m the novelty has so worn off. I am sick of looking tired and feeling tired. Especially as the children are 18m and 3.3yo and fight like tomcats all day at the moment.

Getting to bed early instead of playing on here helps too. Not very good at that part though

will she hold something? or can you let her feed but hold onto her hands?

Bags of sympathy from me too, and it's definitely not your fault!

Most of the time I can cope with the nightfeeding but we are ttc and bfing isn't helping DD tends to sleep from 8 pm to whenever we go to bed (we cosleep) so at the moment I am sleeping on the floor so as not to disturb her when I go to bed and she generally goes to 3 am without waking up now (this also means I can tell busybodies that she's sleeping through, since that's only five hours ). Once she has woken she likes to feed all night and like your DD likes to sleep with a nipple in her mouth and wakes up screaming if I try to reclaim it. Sometimes it's fine but sometimes it is impossible to sleep with someone stimulating a sensitive body part! Grr.

Druzhok DD was the same at 18 months, I think it must be a phase (similar thing was mentioned on another thread recently).

Are you going to feed her at night or not?

Because at the moment, neither of you are having the best deal. She doesn't get to feed on demand unless she demands really loudly, and you're knackered.

So, you need to decide. Either decide to feed her, and don't stop her feeding, or decide that at nearly two, she is old enough for a beaker of water at night if she is thirsty, and tell her they don't work at night any more.

You are right colditz I know it. I have to decide to live with the night feeding for now or put a stop to it. Otherwise we will all be miserable. I can see that in the cold light of day but at 3am with a screaming toddler my resolve fades.

I am going to feed her tonight and tomorrow night. DH is off work Fri which would give us 3 nights I can sleep in another room and let him settle her.

Good luck, suiledonne. Whatever you decide to do from now on (I don't necessarily agree with colditz's range of choices), you have done incredibly well and given her a wonderful closeness.

From my experience letting DP take over worked with stopping the night feeds. IIRC (though I too was very sleep deprived at this point) I would let them have their normal feed before bedtime downstairs and then hand over all control for the rest of the night to DP.

The 3 nights off for your DH should really help change the routine. Good luck!