3rd baby - things going the same way as before. Need support please

[hormonalmum]

I have a 13 day old dd. She was 7lb 7oz at birth. Had her weighed today (2nd time) she was 6lb 13oz, she was 7lb at day 5.
I have had her latch checked by numerous people (hv, mw and breast feeding suport workers) They all think she has a good latch in the main, and think her problem is that she is small and tires easily.

I tickle her and undress her, change her nappy when she has had one breast all in a bid to keep her awake. I have started breast compressions today in a bid to get more milk into her when she is feeding.

She never appears satisfied and will not sleep unless with me. She rarely leaves the breast of her own accord, more that she falls asleep. She feeds alot, which I know is normal, for example, she starts feeding at 10, may finish at 11.30 then wakes again hngry at 12, so the cycle starts again. My other 2 children are 2 and 4 so I do not know how I will cope when dh goes back to work tomorrow.

I am desperate to breastfeed her, but this pattern is the same as what happened with my two older children. I ended up mix feeding them both and felt like I was poisoning them. My feelings of despair are hard to explain as all I want to do is feed my children, but I feel like a failure as I cannot do this basic function.

All I can think of is when the mw held up my ds when he was about the same age as dd is now and said, "look he is wasting away, he is not thriving". She made me think I was deliberately starving him and making him ill, when of course that was not the case.

I had exactly the same with dd1, nearly 5 years ago.

I have the hv coming on Friday to weigh her again and the mw at the weekend. I plan to attend yet another breast feeding cafe on Thursday. I feel like a complete failure - what can I do??

Congratulations on baby number 3! Just wanted to let you know I was you 3.5 months ago. I failed miserably to feed dd1, fed dd2 till 4 months till I had to admit she was starving (!) and thought I was going same way with dd3, mw advised topping up at 3 weeks as she still hadn't gained birth weight and fed and slept on me ALL the time. I topped up for 3 weeks but in mean time discovered La Leche League and by 6 weeks had dropped the top ups. Since then I have discovered a great sling and embraced the constant feeds (which now aren't so constant), resigned myself to a baby who likes to be carried around and slept with (that's not that uncommon) and realized you don't need to be on the 75th centile to be happy - she has gone from 50th to 2nd but is definitely thriving (in fact she's doing a poo on my knee as we speak!).
So don't stress too much, I would advise extra bf help - LLL were great for me and as for the previous mw's comment .
It sounds like you are doing a grand job, maybe you just need someone to tell you it's all completely normal and your dc is beautiful and doing well. xxx

Hope you get good help, hormonalmum. Hiccups has given you a good idea.

I think you really need someone to observe a feed, someone who knows what to look for and will not say 'it looks fine to me, just carry on....' It may look fine, but a baby who is staying the same weight over days in the first few weeks needs checking out.

It is no good saying 'she is small and tires easily' either...she is not especially small, and breastfeeding is not especially tiring for babies, either. It could be that this is how she is meant to be - slow gaining at first. Hard to say.

What about wees and poos? A well-feeding baby of 13 days poos several times a day.

It's not true you are a 'failure' - how can you be a failure, trying so hard as you are?

Some babies do need to be near or on the breast almost all the time in order to thrive - your baby may be one of those.

OTOH, maybe milk transfer could be improved.

Hope you get good help.

hiccups - thanks for your kind words. Its nice to know I could crack this. Your experience makes me feel a little more positive. I will conntact LLL and see if they can help. What kind of sling do you have? I have one but it does not allow dd2 to feed.

I met another mum today and her dd was the same age as mine and she had put on alot of weight since birth. I hate to think I am starving dd and causing her distress. That is how I feel - probably due to my bf experience and

tiktock - sorry I should have said. Various people have observed dd feed and have said the feeding does look ok. I personally think the problem may be getting dd to open her mouth wide enough, but everyone says that it does look wide enough.
I know dd is not that small, so wondering why I have been told that.

I am concerned about the poos (or lack of) dd goes every 3 days or so. Does have plenty of wet nappies every day.

I just want to feed my dd.

I do feel like a failure (and being honest, for the third time over) but I know I am trying my best (like I did with my other 2 dc) but it's just not working

hormonalmum, thanks for getting back with more info.

The lack of poos with the static weight are both signs you need good help now. The wet nappies are a sign she is not dehydrated - which is good. But honestly on the info you have given here, the feeding is not ok and things are not fine. This does not mean everyone needs to panic, but it does mean you need expert input to make the feeding go better. The risk is that when feeding is not effective, babies lack the energy to make it become effective - the sort of things you need to speak to someone about are expressing to use the ebm as a supplement; improving latch; checking for oral anomalies.

If you need to supplement, you can do it with ebm, donor milk (if available), or the minimal use of formula...not saying any of this is needed, but expert assessment is needed, and I'd worry you are not going to get it from people who say things look fine, and ignore the weight and the lack of poos

BTW, I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor, and I think you may need to see someone who can offer some expert, clinical assessment...beyond what most bfcs (and I include myself in that) are trained to do.

Hi hormonal, I use the 'close' sling, it has lots of different positions you can use, including a nursing one, I got mine off ebay too so it wasn't that expensive, dd3 lives in it! I hope you have managed to get to see someone today, my local bf adviser linked to the clinic was lovely as were the LLL. Try not too obsess too much over weight (easy to say I know!) as I really don't think that helped my milk supply. Keep us posted on how things are going, it sounds like you are coping really well under a difficult situation. x

I wrote 2 really long post on Monday but they got lost when my internet went down.

I spoke to a local LLL supporter yesterday and have an appointment tomorrow with lactation specialist.

Feeling a bit down, but hoping that tomorrows appointment will help.

Also got the hv and mw coming over the next few days to weigh dd which is unsettling.

Thanks for the sling info, will go and check them out.

Just updating. Met the lactation specialist today and she remembered me and my problems with dd1. Definately a low milk supply problem as no problem with dd2 and her latch etc.
She has given me some tips for increasing my milk supply (domperidone - sp?, fenugreek, fennel etc and increasing my expressing with a high grade pump)

I am unfortunately resigned to having to mix feed again as I literally do not have enough time in the day to express after every feed.
I am very sad about it and have cried quite a bit today but I have 3 children and myself to think of. I do not want to look back and just think of all the time that I spent not enjoying all my children.
I will just have to make the most out of the bad situation I find myself in again.

Thanks Hiccups and Tiktok for your advice.

Really feel for you hormonal, I took fenugreek and blessed thistle in the early days plus tried to express a couple of times after feeds but found that really difficult with 3, in the end just tried to up frequency of feeds, switch feeding was quite effective as dd often nodded off. I too tried domperidone, doctor wouldn't prescribe though so had to buy over the counter so was quite expensive (£5 for 10) and it didn't make a difference but I've heard you should take 3 times the amount I was (3 tabs 3 times a day) which without prescription would be v expensive.
I know what you mean about getting her weighed, I nearly burst into tears when midwife told me of dds low weight at 3 weeks - at that point I started topping up and as I've said I did that for 3 weeks, it meant dd was much more settled and gave me chance to get my sanity back and think rationally about it. I managed to wean her off the top ups over the next 3 weeks and we've never looked back but if I hadn't been able to do that I would have been disappointed but known that I had tried my hardest and done the best for my dd.
My dd2 had v slow weight gain and I was encouraged to continue by a lovely hv but had to stop at 4 months. The difference in her was immediate, I look back at pictures of her now and feel guilty for carrying on, she was thin and pale. dd3 is small had her weighed at 16 weeks and she was 11lb 4, everyone comments on how tiny she was but she's healthy with it. dd2 at 15 weeks was 9lb 8 both were similar weights at birth. I asked a friend this time to tell me honestly if it looked like dd3 was going the same way as dd2 - she hasn't .
I know I'm giving you mixed messages here, but what I'm trying to say is do your best but don't beat yourself up. Hope it all goes well in next couple of days, keep us posted, and ask for as much help as you can! Good luck and big hugs x

hormonalmum I could have written your post and whilst I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone I feel less alone having read these posts.

I had a rough breastfeeding experience with DD1 which resulted in mixed feeding from day 3 to 12 weeks when I switched to formula entirely. Although DD is healthy & happy I'm full of regrets and sadness that I wasn't able to do more. Those feelings have always haunted me and I was determined to do everything in my power to make things work with DC2.

DS is 11 days old, born at 8lb and was weighed at day 6 (down 10%) and again at day 10 (down a further 4%). I fed on demand and stayed in bed for the first 6 days but I just wasn't getting any sleep as DS fed constantly & very sleepy rather than feeding well. He had about 2-3 wet nappies a day and after the first 24 hrs had only done 1 small meconium poo. My midwife recommended limiting feeds to 1hr (for my sanity) and then offering 1oz top up as needed. We only did this about once a day & i was feeling quite positive about my milk supply as wet nappies had increased to about 6 per day. Small meconium poo about once every 3-4 days. I also started taking fenugreek. Then my optimism crashed when he was weighed yesterday.

I've had great support from my midwifes. We've paid for independant care this time, amongst other reasons to ensure we get the feeding support. After the 10 day weight loss I've been advised to feed 3 hrly, limit breastfeed to 1hr then formula top up after every feed & express as often as I can. Expressing's never really worked for me, 5ml is normal. The main problem I'm having is DSs sudden disinterest in latching to my breast. I'm spending most of the hr battling to get him on or waking him. As a result and naturally with my increased anxiety I already feel my milk supply diminishing.

The most important thing is of course that DS picks up & starts to thrive. Whilst breastfeeding means so so much to me I think my journey is on a slippy downward slope. I too have to think about how this is affecting the rest of my family, not just my needs.

hormonalmum, I really hope things can work for you. I'm not able to offer any guidance but I really want you to know you're far from alone. Sending my very best to you ... xx

I have been off line for a while so my apologies for the lack of update.
Millingtonsmummy - how are things now? You have my upmost sympathy and I know exactly how you are feeling. I really hope that you and your ds are doing well. In particular I hope that you are feeling at ease with your current situation. Thank you for posting your experience. If I can be of help to you please let me know.
Hiccups - I have now got a sling and dd2 seems much happier being with me. I have yet to master bf with the sling but I am trying to get used to it. Thank you for your continued support and offer of your experience which has been a help to me.

I wondered if you might like an update on my situation? I have had quite a turbulent time and have been up and down in my mood. I have been unable to express after every feed as like Hiccups - no time to do this with 3. I managed a session of expressing each evening but usually got nothing out. This in itself is very demoralising as it just highlights the problem. I know it is not what you get out but the process itself, so have tried to express when I could over the past 2 weeks.
dd2 was weighed again on Thursday and has put on 3oz. Not massive I know and not back to birth weight (she is now 27 days and was 5oz off birth weight last week)
Lots of wet nappies and on average has 1 dirty nappy per day - which I know isnt great but some days we have 3.
Lactation consultant was pleased with her weight gain though and the gain has given me some time to come up with my own "plan".

This is basically to give it my best shot and if I need to top up with formula, so be it. I have not yet had to give dd2 a bottle - the 2 occassions she has had formula it has been off a spoon and this somehow seems a little easier.

Overall, I think dd is happier and that makes me happier but I must do the right thing for her and in the short term I think I will continue to visit a bf group and see the lactation specialist and if dd2 weights levels or drops I will then re-assess.

ps - thanks also to tiktok for your advice.

Hormonalmum
How's it going? I just wanted to let you know that I have had problems BF my children too (DS1 mix fed to 4 1/2m, DD mix fed to 3 1/2m)and I was desperate to feed my 3rd. I finally did it with him (we are still ebf with solids at 11m) but it was another uphill battle. I had a crappy milk supply with DD due to her tonuge tie and had the same problem with DS2 so got it rectified asap. I also hired a Medela double electric pump for the 1st couple months. Expressing with 2 other DC's would not have been possible otherwise. It helped with my supply. I then bought an electric double pump (ameda lactaline) of ebay. Maybe that can help in your situation too.

Glad to hear that there is weight gain and dirty nappies. You are doing a great job!!! Please don't forget that.

MissPaella - your experience sounds very simiar to mine.
I am using an ameda lactaline to express at the moment.

Had dd weighed this week and she had put on 2.5oz. Lactation consultant suggested my last hope was a supplementer.
I have one on order which I am going to try and see where we are in another week or so.

I so want to enjoy dd2 and right now I think I could enjoy her a little more if she seemed happier and that means getting more milk into her somehow.

This is quite similar to what happened to me with DS.

Thread here if you want a look.

Short version -I topped up a bit on the HV advice and expressed, I did manage to wean off the topups and back to fully breastfeeding as baby got bigger/stronger/better able to feed.

Just want to reassure that there is hope, I was sure I would have to give up BF. And BTW he is now nearly 18m and still breastfeeding

moaning - have read your thread and thanks for the support. Well done to you and ds on doing so well. You must be chuffed to bits to be still breastfeeding. How was it weaning him off the top ups?

I will keep you all posted on my progress.

Hi Hormonalmum - I'm in the same place as you. With no 2, I tried fenugreek, domperidone and fennel seed with no effect. Also entered expressing hell. Put my self under huge amounts of pressure and think I had less milk than with no 1.

Now have dc3 - she is 3 weeks old and is probably gaining slowly. I say probably as the hv haven't contacted me and based on my previous experiences, I'm not chasing them...
The only thing I'm doing this time is trying to relax and have had lots of family support to ensure that I can just focus on babba.

We are supplementing with a formula feed in the evening to allow me some sleep.

DC3 is a very content baby - wakes every three hours and feeds for an hour. Also has loads on wet nappies but only 1 or 2 poos a day ( other dc's were the same, even when they were totally formula fed)

I am trying very hard not to allow it to stress me too much this time as I really think that is the worst thing that you can do. Bfding is great - but it isn't the only way and no one is "failing" if they have to go down that route

Weaning off the top ups I did over about 1-2weeks, left the night time top up til last. I was convinced that he would never sleep without it

By replacing the formula topups with EBM I got to give him my milk, but also I felt reassured that I was making enough milk to feed him.

So when he was putting weight on nicely and feeding with a lot more gusto, I reduced then to 3 x day, then 2 x, etc. He was fine, made no difference to sleep etc.

I was a bit paranoid careful about getting him weighed the next few weeks to make sure he was still ok.

It was very hard work though, I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to express for topups. I was so knackered but I really wanted to BF. DD was 20/21months at the time so it was a slog. But was only for a few weeks, and it was worth it.

Lots of luck with it all

Not sure whether to start a new thread or update here. I am feeling rather proud of myself and wanted to share and let anyone in similar situation know what can be achieved.

Dd2 now nearly 1 and I am still feeding her!!!!!! She has about 3 feeds off me in the day and unlimited at night. I have topped her up with formula and used a supplementor until she was about 8.5months. Then she started taking a bottle (I went back to work so had to crack that one through necessity)

I never thought I would get to 12 months with all my troubles. Dd2 doesnt seem keen on giving up anytime soon

Wow, that's brilliant - such a nice ending to this thread :)

That's wonderful - well done for persevering through such a difficult situation. You must be so pleased. :)