Making a right arse of tandem feeding. Please come and help me.

[mawbroon]

ds1 is 4.7yo, ds2 is 10 weeks.

ds1 has been an avid breastfeeder since the beginning and hasn't really ever shown many signs of weaning.

Things got really rough for us around October last year when we were all ill with one thing or another for 10 weeks. ds1 nursed a lot then, despite there not being a whole lot of milk as I was pg.

Then things got even rougher when I broke my ankle in January when 32 weeks pg. I had surgery on it and spent 9 weeks on crutches and I still get pain in it now and again, but it's mostly ok. During this time, ds1 was shipped off to granny, or aunties or whoever was able to have him because I couldnm't look after him. So, when we were together, understandably, he wanted to nurse a lot more than before. It was the only thing I could do for him really, and I was happy to be doing it.

Then ds2 was born, and predictably, ds1 started asking for milk every time ds2 was feeding. I went with it for a couple of weeks, then we worked out a deal about him only having milk at certain times.

I nursed them both together for a while, but I really can't stand doing it. It makes me feel agitated and almost angry. Irrational, I know, but that's the way it is. Also, at bedtime, ds1 would just fanny about playing with ds2 instead of going to sleep, so feeding then seperately at this point works well.

The trouble we are having now is that ds1 is not prepared to wait until ds2 is finished, especially first thing in the morning. He screams and wails and tries to pull ds2 off my breast. I have explained that ds2 is a baby and can't wait like a big boy etc etc (you know the sort of thing), absolutely nothing will pacify him until he gets fed. I have even had to resort to locking myself and ds2 in the bathroom to let ds2 feed without getting mauled by his big brother, but he just kicked the door and screamed for the ten minutes or so that I was in there. And, although I vowed i would never do this, i have used nursing as a bargaining tool, which is not ideal. eg if you behave when your brother is feeding then you will get some after, and if you donm't behave then you get none.

I know i could sort this short term by shoving him in front of the telly, or bribing him with sweets or something, but that's not the way I want to go. And especially at 5.30am!!

HELP

Going out to nursey now, back later

Oh lordy mawbroon I haven't any advice for you but have seen you around these boards and admire your patience! I seem to remember you go to LLL meetings, would the leaders/other mums be able to help? Hope someone comes along with some good advice.

I suppose it is rather to much to hope your HV might be of assistence...?! (If you have one that doesn't self-combust at idea of feeding a child rather than baby and tandem feeding to boot!)

mawbroon
No advice really sorry, I thogut my DS was the biggest milk monster, looks like that goes to your DS.
I only have a 3yo, but would it be possible to treat him in the same way as if he was misbehaving about anything else? So explain what you need him to do and then do whatever it is you would usually do (maybe with a concession as you'll have a baby attached ) if he doesn't do it?
Does he go to school yet?
Is he fed on demand or morning/night and through the night?

Oh I see you mention nursery - was just going to ask if you can increase his hours?

BTW I couldn't have coped without beebies and sweets/raisins. DD is 8 months now, and we have cut down, honest!

I would do whatever you need to do to get through things in the short term, whatever it takes. DS1 is reacting to the newness of his baby brother and all the upheaval he has had in recent months.

Nothing wrong with bribing him with raisins or other nice breakfast that the baby can't have or even TV (in moderation).

Or would DS1 settle for a 'count of ten' short feed before the baby. How is DS2 in the morning ? If DS2 is happy to wait, there is no reason that you couldn't feed DS1 first if you wanted to. Or maybe alternate each morning who gets the first feed ?

Could you set aside a certain time when DH cuddles DS2 elsewhere and you and DS1 get to have a special reasonable length nursing session just the two of you. Something for him to look forward to, linked to the most valuable nursing time for him ?

I don't think you are making an arse of tandem nursing, in fact it sounds like you are dealing well with a difficult situation.

You will find a way through this, you know that extended nursing is a matter of balancing everyone needs and as you understand DS1 nursing needs so well, I am confident you will find an solution which works for your family.

Forgot to add, many mothers including me have very strong reactions to feeding two different aged children at the same time. AOTN book has many reports of mothers having angry, irration feelings to double nursing. It is normal to have strong feelings whilst nursing two.

Honestly my skin crawled at times. Luckily for me the feeling faded as the gently newborn suckling, caught up a bit with toddler hoover aproach to nursing

That said I tried to reserve tandem nursing together to the late afternoon, 'everyone is too tired and no one can wait for milk' nursing session of the day. DH would often come home from work, to me with a sleeping baby and toddler on my lap not daring to move in case I woke one of them up.

HTH

that is so interesting - i used to absolutely hate it, now it's getting better. i put that down to the fact i no longer have to have dd balanced precariously, as they get more spine control it becomes easier to feed in odd 'tandem' positions. Still doesn't help with ds deciding he wants "dat one" every five minutes

Thanks for your replies. I am just grabbing a second before starting on tea/bath/bed etc then I am going out later, so don't have time to respond in full. I'll be back on tomorrow though!

We've had a really good day today thanks to some of your ideas and some good luck!!

DS1 woke at 5am and I managed to cuddle in with him and get him back to sleep without ds2 waking. He slept until 6.30am and I went into his bed and he had a long uninterrupted feed. We then got up and spent some lovely time together cooking for the freezer.

By some miracle, ds2 slept until 8am and I didn't have time to feed him before we went out to nursery and so fed him in the sling on the bus to nursery, so that completely avoided any morning conflict.

ds1 didn't ask again until we were in the car about to leave the zoo and I was feeding ds2. I offered him a count to 10 feed (we did this when he was younger, so he was familiar with it) and he was happy with two count to 10 feeds.

He had another short feed before tea time and then at bedtime, I fed ds2 when I read ds1 his story and then ds2 was happy to lie in between us while ds1 had his feed. ds1 then went off to sleep with no fuss.

Here's hoping we can do similar tomorrow....

MrsMotMot - pmsl at the thought of my HV being any use. Yes, I do go to LLL but ds1 is now the oldest nursling that I know of there and I don't know anyone else in RL who has had a child nurse as long as this.

Stealth - it's school nursery, so only 2.5hrs a day. After all the seperation we had with ny ankle etc, I am reluctant to send him away and I really don't think he would want to either. He is nursing morning/bedtime and whenever I feel that refusing would cause a riot. But he is asking way, way more than that and would nurse many times a day (and night) if I let him. We have tried never offer, never refuse in the past and he was like way hey, my luck's in!!

Babies, thanks for reminding me about the count to 10 trick. I guess he is still adjusting to his wee bro, but I am impatient and was hoping 10 weeks would be long enough! Saying that, I've only really been back in business in terms of full mobility for maybe three weeks ish, so it's not really that long.

I am also noticing that after ds1 has had an outburst of terrible behaviour, or has tried to hurt ds2 or pull him off the boob, I feel very angry with him and I don't actually want to let him nurse. I guess I just have to get over myself because I think it's his strong need to nurse being refused that makes him behave like this.

One day, he will wean, and I will wonder what all the fuss was about...

glad you have had a better day
ikwym about resentful feeding - i sometimes worry that feeling is seeping into the rest of my relationship with him, as I am so relieved when he is out at nursery or being entertained by grandparents. I wonder if I weaned I'd feel better about that. But even if I thought so, I don;t have the energy...

I truly admire your patience and perserverance but I do feel that you should have your eldest child fully weaned off the breast.

and your reasoning behind that shopwise?

Have you ever nursed an older child? Do you fully understand the issues?

Hi Mawbroon, I am sorry I don't have any constructive advice, only to say that the forums on www.thegreenparent.co.uk have a few ladies who have breastfed older children and I think that if there is anywhere (other than mumsnet) online where you might find someone who has breastfed a child to age 4+ that might be a good place to start.

Also have you thought about contacting Ann Sinnot? I assume you saw her webchat not too long ago? (If not I can find a link for you)

Mawbroon, Glad yesterday went better, lets hope this is a start of a new trend.

I was trying to remember how long it took DD to adjust to DS'd arrival, I couldn't remember exactly but it was several months before we had settled back to normal behaviour and happy sharing of breasts/mummy.

Welcome to Mumsnet, shopwise

I hope you will continue to hang around this board and learn more about older nurselings and their weaning capability. Needless to say it is nothing like weaning a baby or young toddler, an older nurseling has more of a say in how and when they wean.

Hi shopwise and welcome to the bf/ff boards. Bf an older child is really not very common in the UK- do you not think mawbroon may have heard advice like yours once or twice before?!

People who are bf older babies/toddlers/children often don't have much, or in fact any support in RL. Asking for support or advice from strangers on the internet can be a real boon. Other strangers chipping in with the same sort of 'why haven't you weaned' stuff we hear in RL is not very helpful.

Sorry for the hijack mawbroon but it's something that is close to my heart even though my own DS is only just an 'extended bf-er!

Also try Natural Mamas - lots of natural term breastfeeders there

Mawbroon, I'm coming late to this, but could you maybe read to your eldest while feeding your youngest? Or otherwise give him attention? (I'm thinking that maybe it's your attention he's after most of all, iyswim ...)

NQC - yes, he is wanting my attention, but unfortunately he has never, ever been one to be distracted easily when he really desperately wants milk. If I mentioned books, he would want me to read to him while he was also nursing.

DS2 has been really making things easier for me these last couple of days by sleeping longer than ds1 in the morning so we get a good hour or so to nurse and have breakfast together before the competition arrives on the scene.

Long may it continue....