Assuming I want to keep this going - how to I get DD to stay on the boob when she doesn't want to?

[somethinganything]

Hi all,

Began another thread last week about losing the will to breastfeed. DD is now 8 weeks old. Mix-fed from week 2 because of low milk supply and weight loss. I've tried various things to get milk supply up but basically exclusive breast feeding is not an option. I'm giving top-ups after each feed but DD is increasingly reluctant to go on the breast at all - she fusses and cries and arches her back until I give her a bottle.

Any suggestions?

Have you called any of the helplines? A proper conversation might help sort out your options.

Sorry things were hard for you....extending your breastfeeding ie 'keeping this going' is only gonna happen with less formula feeding, sorry. A top up at every feed is usually not compatible with continuing to breastfeed - what you are experiencing is what typically happens. The baby votes for the bottle because the breast is not giving her what she wants.

You can increase your milk supply by expressing a lot - my guess is you will need to do this many times (6-8) a day and at least once at night, to save your supply. This is hard work, I know However, it does work to make the breast a happier and more responsive 'place' for your dd. She needs to 'un-learn' what she has learnt so far.

Frequent milk removal is the only thing that truly works to inc. milk supply - herbs, supplements, medication, will not work at all unless this is done as well.

It's better to know what you have to do, I think, rather than struggle on doing something that is not working

Hi tiktok,

Thanks for your response. For the first two weeks I literally fed her 24/7, we co-slept etc but she lost a lot of weight and after a few hospital trips I was told that formula was a must. I have been expressing but 6-8 times a day is just not realistic, I have a toddler to look after as well and I would literally be spending every hour of the day feeding or expressing.

I know it is rare but I do think I'm just one of those people who doesn't have enough milk and the top-ups are necessary. I had the same issue with DD1 - we were in hospital for a week trying to get feeding established but the paeds and midwives all agreed at the end that I would have to give her formula. I was expressing after each feed and tried weaning her off the top-ups once but her weight just went down again. I managed to mix-feed her for 5 months and was hoping to do a similar thing for DD2 but it has been a lot harder this time round.

I haven't yet spoken to a breastfeeding counsellor because I've had sooo much advice over the weeks. And I just think I will get told the same stuff "Oh you do have enough milk it's just that you're not doing xyz" "you should be taking xxx" "there's this anti-emetic you can try..." - I feel like I've tried all that as far as possible. But I suppose if that's the only option I'll just have to make a decision based on that.

I'm also fed up with being lectured about how bad it is to give DD formula when I've only ever done it on medical advice and I know that's what I'll be told if I speak to la leche league or something.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It's certainly not directed at you and i"m really grateful for the honest response. I'm just feeling sad and frustrated by the whole process

Have you tried domperidone? This has worked well for me and allowed me to mix feed both my little ones. You can get it from inhousepharmacy.co.uk. I also had low milk supply, that no amount of round the clock feeding and pumping would increase. See this thread by the way:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/940904-Is-it-possible-that-my-milk-nev er-came-in

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/945256-DD2-is-7-weeks-and-I-am-really-losing-t he

And this one

What are you eating? Sorry if I am stating the obvious, but are you ensuring you are eating healthy nutrient rich food - to produce all that milk. As you have a toddler as well as a baby, I know regular healthy meals for Mum can be forgotten about, or slip down the list.

My step-Mum who is a great BF counsellor/mentor always talks of 'jealously protecting her milk' - by prioritising meals and making sure Mum get's enough of what she needs to produce milk including food, drink & rest.

I got by on many a day with a really good natural muslie with loads of seeds, nuts, fruit & organic yoghurt. Took under a minute to prepare, can be done one handed & eaten anywhere. Not ideal, but a great fallback instant meal that makes good milk.

good luck

downdog - a mother's milk production has very little/nothing at all to do with her own intake of food or the quality of her intake of food. Ditto drink. Ditto rest. It's an unhelpful myth to perpetuate, sorry.

somethinganything - none of the bf lines should lecture you on the use of formula. I am a bfc with NCT - I didn't lecture you, now, did I ?

Without being there at the time, I can't tell what happened in the early days. It may be, though, that your baby was not transferring milk effectively despite the frequent feeding, and that this was missed (not an uncommon tale, sadly).

On the other hand, it may be you are one of the rare women who does struggle to produce sufficient milk - and I do see that expressing 6-8 times a day plus at night is an enormous task. The thing is, though, that this is the only way you will rescue your milk supply - formula top ups at every feed are the death knell for any breastfeeding at all. The majority of women are simply not able to maintain (let alone increase) their milk supply with top ups as often as this It is possible to breastfeed and use formula alongside breastfeeding, but the formula has to be limited - top ups at every feed don't allow breastfeeding to continue longer-term

You might get away with fewer expressings - try four, plus at night, perhaps, and see if this makes a difference?

I hope this helps. Like you, I think honesty is important and you can then make a decision based on facts.

Something anything - how do you calm down your DD when she cries, excluding feeding? My DS used to fuss for ages, and white noise really helped calm him down so that he was calm rather than tizzy for a feed. Perhaps you could try that, or music?

Tiktok - I know (from you and other posters and websites) that lack of food/drink/rest etc in itself does not cause low milk production. However I sometimes wonder whether the research etc was done on mothers that were confident (for lack of a better word) in their breasfeeding? Does stress have an impact? I am pretty sure my let down was delayed by stressing, whereas if I could relax, it was quicker. And having food/drink/rest did cut down my stress levels!

cleanandclothed - let down can be affected by stress, in the short term. Overall quality and quantity of milk is not affected by it.

The research on these issues - rest, stress, food, drink - is pretty robust. It's been done in all sorts of ways. It's been done experimentally - deliberately giving mothers more food or more fluids and comparing their output and/or weighing their babies, for example. It's been done observationally - looking at mothers' diet and milk production in situations where the mother is not getting much food (eg during religious fasting periods), or where the mothers are chronically under-nourished and comparing them to well-nourished mothers. Mothers known to be stressed have also had their milk output monitored and tested.

None of these studies shows anything to justify advising mothers to eat/drink/rest for the sake of their milk - of course there may be other good reasons to advise all that

somethinganything how about using a SNS/lactation aid to supplement? That way you get your LO off the bottle, topped up AND your supply stimulated all at the same time. I used one to solve my DD's nipple confusion and it's really helped us establish BF.

Takes a little patience to use it to start with, but I found persistence paid off and within a day or so, we were going great guns with it. Medela make one, but you can probably improvise one yourself, if you can be bothered (basically, a bottle you hang round your neck with long thin tubes which you insert into the baby's mouth while it's at the breast...)

Hi all - again, it's taken days to get back online. Sorry I really don't seem to have time to do anything at the mo. Many thanks for all the advice.

DD seems to be a little bit happier on the breast at the moment so maybe all is not lost! On the occasions when she refuses to breastfeed I try to express instead and I've been trying to give some breastfeed only feeds given what TikTok says re top-ups after every feed. But the maximum she has gone is about 45mins after a breastfeed before she wants feeding again.

Anyway, will keep muddling along for now. Really appreciate the time you've all taken to post.

cleanandclothed re calming her down - BF used to work wonders with DD1, she would always go on the breast no matter what, which may be why I managed to maintain the mix-feeding despite giving top-ups after every feed.

DD2 has a lot less patience - I wonder if it's because she's a bit skinnier and therefore a bit more focused about getting the calories in as quick as poss?! Anyway, in terms of calming her, she loves the sound of running water! Not very environmentally friendly clearly so thought I might recording the sound and playing it to her in her cot - the things we do...

Oh yes, with DS we had a recording of a hair dryer that lasted an hour! (we didn't actually record for an hour, it was about 10 mins and then DH put it on the computer and faded it gradually...........)

of course she'll prefer the bottle, the milk falls out of it, she dosen't have to work for it, just as a caveman would sit and eat dial a pizzas if he could.
You need to increase your supply and ditch the bottles if you want a breastfed baby.
Her preferences won't be so important when booby is all there is, baby's gotta eat. You could be doing brilliantly exclusively breastfeeding within the next few weeks and be glad you chucked the bottles.
Decision time.

mumtotwoboys strikes me that perhaps you haven't read my other posts thoroughly. I have tried very hard to exclusively breastfeed both my girls (several attempts with DD1) and each time it has been detrimental to their wellbeing hospital stay with DD1/trips back and forth to hospital with DD2. Now reading TikTok's v helpful posts it may be that there is a way for me to v gradually increase milk supply but it'll be a long hard road and just 'ditching the bottles' and letting her get on with it is clearly not an option if I want a well child. Giving her top-ups is hardly the equivalent of dial-a-pizza. Also the milk doesn't "fall out of the bottle" - if you'd ever watched a baby on a heart monitor drink a bottle of milk you would see that their heart rate jumps massively - sure it's easier than breastfeeding but this idea that by giving a bottle you are just pouring milk down a babies neck is just not accurate.

somethinganything - you are right, you cannot just 'ditch the bottles' and it's also true that milk does not drip from bottles...babies have to work to get the milk from bottles, too.

Going back to what you said on Friday: if she wants feeding after 45 mins this is ok. Just feed her again

Thanks, Tiktok it's going better this week. Spoke to a v helpful peer supporter too. Still don't think exclusive BF is going to be an option but she seems happier on the breast for now. Re the 45mins - that's literally the longest she's ever gone after a BF - it has generally been much more like 5 or 10 mins

5 or 10 mins is merely 'second helpings' - part of the feed

somethinganything, I have no suggestions that might help with your situation, but just wanted to wish you good luck and express my admiration for how hard you have been working for both your DDs. Sounds like it has been a pretty rough ride. I hope things get easier.

have you tried feeding her just as she wakes up when she is really calm and dozy?- almost offer it before she asks

I'm really glad you started this thread as I was thinking of starting a similar one but wasn't sure I could handle the advice - this way I get to read all the good advice you're getting instead!

My daughter is 2 weeks old and after having to give up breastfeeding my son at 8 weeks (he was still only 7lb) I'd really like this to work. As she was border-line low birth weight she was weighed at 3 days and had lost 10%. My midwife was really supportive of my breastfeeding attempts and gave us the benefit of the doubt to keep going. By day 8 she hadn't gained and so my midwife recommended expressing and trying to top up with that but said I'd have to use formula if I couldn't get anything.

Anyway, I've been expressing at the same time as feeding (the let-down makes it much faster if a little cumbersome) and then fed her from the bottle when she's given up from the breast (sometimes takes a bit of effort to rouse her again). Not the easiest but she's gained 6oz in 5 days and I can really tell the difference in my breasts.

I highly recommend trying the expressing again if you can, somethinganything. I'm not always topping up now as she's not always interested and a friend who did this was exclusively breastfeeding within 2 weeks with very healthy weight gain.

Anyway, sorry to go on, I'll be following your progress with interest though!

tiktok, I find it difficult to believe that what you eat and drink doesn't affect milk quality - or are you saying its quantity that is unaffected, not quality? You would think that not taking enough fluids or not eating any protein would have an effect?

ReneRusso - 'tis true, though! Quality and quantity are unaffected by diet, fluid, rest.

Bags of decent research on this

that's a relief - kept worrying that my lack of breastmilk was down to not sleeping/drinking/eating enough/the right things.

xandrarama - thanks!

witch yes that works pretty well actually - she feeds really well at night

HappySeven Well done you - sounds like an excellent strategy

It's just as well that what you eat and drink does not affect milk quality or all the mums of newborns in third world countries wouldn't be able to feed their babies; but they do.

somethinganything not much to add, as usual Tiktok's advice is excellent, but I was going to say to offer extra non-feeding skin to skin, not just yourself but your DH/partner too to encourage lots of positive interations. I was also encouraged to feed when baby just waking up and still sleepy while my DD was going through a nursing strike.