2 questions for BFing gurus, please:

[PacificDogwood]

1. How significant is the colour of EBF baby's poo??

DS4's stool have always been green since they changed from meconium. He is now 4 weeks old. Feeds a lot, v frequently, produces a poo after virtually every feed. He lost less than 5% of this birthweight, regained by 10 days, gained 9 oz in week 3, but only 4 oz last week.

1. Non-nutritive sucking: does this help to increase milk supply or not?

I was under the impression it was removal of milk that triggered more milk production, not just butterfly sucks at the nipple. He was v unsettled last night (this is the culmination of increasingly fraught few days) and demanded breast every 20-40min throughout the night, mostly to just help him go back to sleep - for the next half hour or so, gah!

Any advice gratefully received.

V tired PD x.

1. Not sure

1. Yes, as I understand it - removal of milk is the most effective, but any other type of stimulation by the baby (even butterfly sucking) is also sending the message to keep milk being produced. I would say that it's probably ok to discourage this/sneak away at this point if you want to because it isn't as important for stimulation as removing the milk.

am not a guru but am feeding DD who is 6 months old

DD always had green poo and lots of it

i did go to the GP about it and after 2 months and 2 poo samples (they lost one) am still waiting to get the results

my HV told me that green poo could be due to lots of wind. Can also be due to too much foremilk although this is apparently rare

DD has been referred to a pediatrician to check it out

re the non nutritive sucking - i didn't really differentiate between the 2 at this stage!

are you co-sleeping? you should find this helps with the frequent feeding at night

Thank you, both !

Oh yes, we co-sleep, there is no other way I would survive at this point otherwise. I am quite happy to continue this but would prefer a teensy-leetle bit more sleep, pretty please...

If he cried less and gained more weight I'd not be at all bothered .

Anyone else around this afternoon?

Bumping for you PD

My DS's poo didn't turn mustard yellow until about 8-10 days old, and my extensive googling revealed excess of foremilk/foremilk-hindmilk imbalance as a possible cause. My midwife said it's rare though, and that some babies just produce green poo (if all else is fine - weight gain, dirty and wet nappies etc). Sounds lie your DS is thriving - with just one week of slightly less weight gain - so in my (non-expert) opinion the green poo is fine.

No idea about non-nutritive sucking.

Hope you get some more sleep tonight!

Thanks, Caitni !

It's the combination of less wt gain/green poos (which have always been green, even when he had good wt gain)/lots of crying and being unsettled which is worrying me.

If he is getting too much foremilk and not enough hindmilk, how do I change that?? He cannot spend more time of the breast as I am literally doing nothing else...

And if he is crying inconsolable but quietens on the breast, how can I not feed him or let him suckle??

He is screaming in daddy's arms as I type, after 1 hour on the breast

Gah, and double gah!!

I'm no bf guru either, although I am feeding my first baby who's four months old now.

But... I would have thought if your baby is feeding so regularly he must be accessing the hindmilk. The counsellor at my bf group told us that bf is like turning a hot tap on (bear with me here). At first cold water comes out (foremilk) and then hot water (hindmilk). If you turn the tap off and go back to it within half an hour, the water is still hot; in the same way if the baby goes back on fairly soon after stopping (half an hour or so) he should be getting hindmilk. Also, if he's crying and is generally unsettled he may well be taking in air and could be quite windy, which can also result in green poo.

1. Well, Jack Newman is a respected breastfeeding guru and he says that green poo in bf babies is not something to worry about, if the baby seems fine and is gaining weight. He suggests new mothers should wear sunglasses when changing nappies so they don't worry about poo colour (tongue in cheek).

Weekly Milk gain varies in theory between 5 and 7 ozs Kellymom source However my children had weeks when they gained 1 oz and other weeks when it was nearer 10 ozs ! So your DS weight gains average out at

1. I don't know if comfort nursing affects milk supply, however I do know from watching my children that breastfeeding is so much more than just milk transfer. The act if nursing will relax your DS being close to you and your heartbeat, calm his breathing, moderate his skin temperature, all things making it easier to fall asleep. At 4 weeks old it is your baby's way of checking in with you and making sure you are near.

Would you consider safe co-sleeping an opinion ? This would help you get the maximum level of sleep as baby dozes on and off your breast.

Have you tried breastfeeding whilst lying down on your bed (not sofa in case you fall asleep) during the day can give you chance to relax and catch 5 minutes break/nap.

So your DS weight gains average out at
6 ozs a week, very average

"And if he is crying inconsolable but quietens on the breast, how can I not feed him or let him suckle??"
Go for it, you can not overfeed a breastfed baby. Nothing wrong with offering your baby your breast, anytime your baby needs it.

Aw, thanks again, all, particularly Babieseverywhere! You made me feel slightly better. And yes, we are co-sleeping.

Was in tears for the first time last night - after a 2-3 hour non-stop feeding session he then suckled my little finger for about 1 hour (while I kind of slept next to him ), slept 4(!) hours, nursed for 2 hours, unsettled since.

I stopped/ran out of a herbal supplement I had been taking sometime last week and am seriously wondering whether that has affected my supply.

I am off to BFing clinic - wish me luck! He is screaming in daddy's arms ...
OMG this is No4, you'd think I'd know what I am doing by now!

Congratulations on having your fourth baby..aww. I am expecting my third this summer. I still can't get over how very different babies 1 and 2 were in attitude and personality and I bet your four babies were/are very different too.

Some babies need to suck more than others, my DS definitely fell into this category. In the short term it is easier to fall in with their needs, then try and change them.

From what you have written so far, there isn't an indication of a problem with your milk supply. He is gaining weight and has reasonable amount of poo (even if it is a weird colour), assume he is weeing regularly. He must be taking in enough milk to poo, wee and put on weight.

As for why he is needing a lot of nursing at this time, you may never find the reason. Babies change so often at this stage, it is likely in a few days he will be in a very different pattern of sleep/nursing.

It could be a growth spurt, when he nurses more than normal for a few days to up your milk to match his growth. He might be going down with a cold or many other reasons.

What herbal supplement are you taking ?

Good luck at the breastfeeding clinic.

Well, BFing advisor was lovely - and mother of 9, all BF, natch !

She did not feel we were doing anything particulary wrong and reminded me that some babies are v 'sucky' and also can go through phases were they are v demanding.

I came away feeling much more positive again .
Goes without saying, DS4 was asleep in his car seat from the moment I left the house until the v minute I came back!

I was taking Motherlove 'More Milk Plus' tincture - I was not aware of much of an effect, but now that I have run out, I am wondering... new lot on order now.

If he was happy or gaining tons of weight, I would not worry, but unhappy and slow weight gain just gets all my old insecurities about supply going again, gah!

Why oh why is this feeding business such an emotional one??

Am surprised that hoochie didn't beat me to this suggestion, but very frequent feeding coupled with green poo and being very unsettled could be signs of a milk intolerance.

It's more common than people realise, but the response you'll get from HCPs if you mention it varies wildly.

My 2 have both suffered this way - it took 16 weeks of screaming to realise that this was dd's problem, but we picked it up in ds at 3 weeks.

The best/only way to test whether it's the cause is to give up dairy (totally, and don't substitute too much soya) in your own diet. You'd need to do this for 10-14 days before you saw the full effect - there would be some good and some bad days for ds during this time.

CSWS, this has been mentioned to me in RL. I just cannot bear the thought of life witout milk - for me . But equally, I cannot imagine life without sleep or peace either.

How was it picked up in your case or was it just a matter of going dairy-free and seeing what happened?

Oh believe me, giving up milk is much easier than spending every day sobbing about why your child is so miserable!

With dd it was my hv that actually suggested it in a phone conversation. Her 15th week had been sooo miserable (we had been fobbed off with thinking that it was colic and that it would just stop around 12 weeks) and I mentioned this to the hv, who asked if I'd eaten more dairy than usual that week. 'No' said I - 'I only have milk on my museli at breakfast'. Then after I got off the phone I started thinking about it, and I'd had cheese on toast one day, and some pasta filled with cheese another, and something else I think, so I thought 'hmmm, maybe I have had more dairy'. I cut it out to see if it made any difference (seeking assistance from MN simultaneously of course!), and it did - it was like I had a different child within a couple of weeks (I had a panic on day 4 which was really bad and thought that she must have another allergy too, but actually both of them have turned out to have had a bad day on day 4!).

I then saw my GP to get a paed referral, but he was of the 'allergies are nonsense' camp, so it took some pressure from my hv to get him to refer. Paed was quite convinced from my description that she was intolerant.

Pacific sorry to hear that things are still tricky, although good that the BF advisor was positive (9 babies - wow!). I also went to a breastfeeding support group today and asked about the non-nutritive sucking and was assured it does help stimulate production. So that's one less thing to worry about.

Interesting about the dairy - I have a cousin who's two children had this and she says cutting out dairy saved her sanity. FWIW, I cut out dairy myself years ago - substituted with soya milk and rice milk and it wasn't as hard as I'd expected. I'm back on it now, but in much reduced quantities. Just wanted to let you know that it's possible to cut out dairy and have a normal life!

Really hope it's a temporary issue, like a growth spurt. You've been doing so brilliantly up to this point, and you can get through this. Keep posting, if you have time, as we're here to support you!

not sure about colour of poo but re gaining 90z one week then 4oz week after its possible that he had a major growth spurt then had a less dramatic weight gain and will perhaps gain more again next week and be more settled again
re non nutritive feeding im again not sure but would have thought that while removing milk was the most effective to increase milk production any stimulation would have some effect . i know skin to skin contact even with older babies is supposed to improve milk production so surely non nutritive could have some effect.
mine have all suckled as much for comfort in the first 6 to 8 weeks as for nutrition but it is and was very exhausting being constantly attached to a limpet .
regarding giving up dairy may or may not be the problem but its worth a try . im normally vegan but during this pregnancy and while breastfeding this time have been drinking milk and lo is definitely more windy than the others so your suggestion re your own ds4 has certainly made me wonder whether to stick to soya .
good luck and hope ds4 weight gain improves and he is a little more settled

if he is requiring feeding for comfort and is unsettled because he wants to be close to you as much as to feed . are you carrying him in a sling to give him the closeness he wants without having to feed him . dd4 can be quite unsettled and want to suckle constantly if at these times i put her in the moby wrap she will often settle for 3 or 4 hours and i can get on with my life with hands free. if your already doing this apologies but just thinking of anything thats worked in the past for mine.
also dd4(sorry still not sure of what were calling her ) is definitely more stressed / fractious if im stressed and her weight gain was abysmal at the start when i was stressed by open wound etc . so if you can relax and not worry as much about his weight gain (easier said than done i know) he may be more settled as he knows his mum's calmer
i really hope im not teling you the obvious as i know your an experienced mum but really trying to suggest anything that might help no matter how simple.

Hi Pacific - hope you're feeling a bit better now. Thought I'd add my tuppence on the dairy intolerance possibility. It was raised as a possible reason for my DS's constant screaming and suckiness (if that's a word). In retrospect I think it was a factor although obviously can't be sure. There's a family history of dairy intolerance on DH's side but all of them resolved themselves by early childhood. My SIL and her daughter both went onto dairy free formula but I didn't go down this route with DS. Continued BFing instead. Made a desultory attempt to cut out dairy from my diet but gave up (proved too much when coupled with coping with his - definitively diagnosed - silent reflux). However, he settled down a lot by 3 or 4 months old. I realise that seems like a lifetime away but it isn't really. Maybe your DS will be the same. 4 weeks is still so tiny and lots of babies are unsettled and screamy for all kinds of reasons at that age. I guess what I'm trying to say is that cutting out dairy at this stage might be a bit drastic.

Oh, and I didn't bother going to get my DS weighed regularly. As long as he fed regularly, filled his nappies (didn't look too closely at colour) and gradually grew out of his clothes, I was happy. Much easier than dealing with the HV's raised eyebrows over his place on the 9th centile.

regarding your ds4 weight gain doesnt seem to bad or anything to worry about.dd4 lost just over 10% birthweight then week 3/4 gained8oz getting up to birthweight and then this week (week 4/5 )only gained 4oz .hv was happy with this and said it was pretty normal for ebf baby .she like your little one is a limpet who feeds almost constantly and for the effort im putting in should be a whopper by now.
again good luck and hope things settle down

I would read up a bit about oversupply letdown on Kellymom.

if you think some of the things it mentions about oversupply hold true, you can try block feeding as described on Kellymom to reduce your supply.

Hand express to comfort from the other side to prevent engorgement.

that may be an answer to both your questions.

another question: At 4 weeks your milk production is still being controlled significantly by hormones rather than the milk removal.

how are things today pd?

Thank you all again, hello March ladies and thanks for your support.
Well, had a better night, he went 3 hours between feeds and has been happy on dad's arm this morning .

hoochie, sounds like you have a lot of experience on the CMPI front to share... and I may well come back and call on your expertiese.

Having spent a bit of time on Kellymom and the rest of the Interweb I think I will persevere a little bit longer, try more regular breast compressions and see how we go. Had a cup of tea without milk this morning and did not like it .
I think we will need to do a shop for milk substitute before I can bear a go at going dairly free.
Out of interest what did you subsitute cow's milk with, hoochie? Rice milk? I gather there is a cross sensitivity to soy?
DH away to the shops later .