Daily Mail article on extended breastfeeding

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Here. But you know what it says, and you already know what the comments say too....

See this, this is me yawning this is

Another great post, I like you a lot.

Though the tantrum thing unfortunately does not apply to DS :-(

Thanks iliveingroundhogday.

Note I did say less tandrums not none, we have a highly strung child here too ;)

I bought a fab tee for my baby-to-be (July). It says, "My milk comes from my mum, not just any old cow".

I fail to understand why everyone accepts that children need milk, but it's socially acceptable to give them milk from another mammal, not their own.

IF children need milk WHY isn't it best to give them human milk?

My 5 1/2 year old self weaned at 15 months. Turns out he's allergic to friggin cows milk so that's a problem! I'm probably going to express for him when baby comes, so he can get human milk to drink (if he wants to try it).

And I clearly saw the irony in rainbow's post. Very well put point, I thought.

Final point - it seems that the only people who think that EBF creates clingy, problematic children are the parents who don't EBF. .

Surely its up to the parent to help independence and learning skills to gain independence, whilst i respect those here who do extended bf and value their reasons its not something that I agree with.

I simply can't imagine telling DS in a month's time "no, you can't BF anymore, you've turned two, remember?"(iliveinggroundhogday), I had to do this with dd with regards to the dummies and bottles or she would have had them forever. She is not well at the moment and she was crying for her dummy, but i said no the dummy fairy came to take them remember, and she wailed dummy fairy took them, dummies for babies. I really felt like giving her the dummy but had to be strong and say no.

I do like Babies posts too and she sounds like a lovely lady , I have read Babies blog and its quite interesting, I do have an open mind and respect others who to extended bf, but in general I have my views on older children. What aout us teens and adults surely we should have bm not cows then!

I read on here a while ago about a poster highlighting a teen who was still bf and an adult of 24 years who had a one off bf from her mum as she was undergoing some emotional trauma i was . When would be the cut off age to say enough now, its time to stop bf, 8, 9, 15?

I don't understand why a two year old needs to be independent? Theres plenty of time to learn that. As someone said, its cultural, its not a fact or anything, its just your feeling.

Like your dummy analogy, you chose that. You didn't have to take it and you didn;t have to say no to her, you chose to. And thats your choice to make, but its not set in stone, its just what you have decided for yourself.

Yes runny thats why i respect everyones decsion to continue to extended bf they have their reasons to, but in general have my views. I chose that analogy as i did not bf for long so cannot say, and thats the only one i can come up with.

Though my dd is only just 3, she is only tiny and still not developmentally 3 that is why with the PT It will have to be when she is herself ready and will be more relaxed about it. DD used to go to a pre school 2 a week and the manager thought that she had SN because she could not sit still in storey time, and just wanted to play like most 2 year olds. That week she did all the things that the nursery said she could not, i do agree runny that we do want children to be mini adults by the time they are 3, in retrospect they are still babies and have plenty of time to reach certain skills of independence.

piglet what's your logic for NOT EB? Other than you just don't like it/it's icky/putting words into your mouth but it's my interpretation of your point, apologies if I'm wrong. Is there an actual logical reason?

For instance, there's a physiological reason for taking a dummy and bottle off a child at a certain age WRT mouth and teeth development.

The teen and adult BF isn't a good reason IMO. Firstly I'm sure they're made up examples - sounds too far fetched to me - and secondly they're not children - back to the grown up cow in a field still with its mother.

EBF is for children, not adults, and in all cases I've heard of EB stops at 3,4,5,6,7 - 8 at at the latest - somewhere along this spectrum with 3/4 about the usual latest age. Of course, kids up to about 8 need milk of some kind so 8 seems reasonable to me if it works for all involved.

Givecarrot as I have said its my opinon yes I suppose its the icky factor and also a Western cultural thing, or that older children should not be ebf. I am entitled to my opionion and your entitled to yours. Not everyone is going to support it or agree, just because I am a MNetter does not mean i have to agree and hold the same opionons as the collective, I have my reasons for not agreeing with it just as you have yours to support it. Does one always have to have factual evidence to back up their views and if they cant they should agree with everyone else, cant an opionion be jsut that like mine is.

My opinion about extended bf is noway related to what i feel about bf in general, as i said i totally support it and would feed another dc till 2 if i can

Yes, it was meant to be ironic!

I dont like the term "extended" - it is actually natural term breastfeeding. If you choose to practise curtailed breastfeeding that's fine.

the dummy example doesn't fit. BFing until 5/6/7 etc. IS natural and stopping before that is intervention. A dummy is an artificial comforting object that may cause physiological problems to the child.

Parents don't have to draw the line at any age when it comes to BFing because nature does that. And repeat: due to changes on jaw formation children cannot suckle forever, therefore breasts stop producing milk and this is the end of it. The fact that this age is different for every child shows just how wise nature is and knows the and respects the needs of every individual child.

additionallt, this is now boring the tits off me and that's certainly no good for BFing, so I think I'm gonna hide this thread.

Babieseverywhere

Yes, I know what the claims are. I'm just finding it difficult to find the evidence to support them.

What I am saying is where is the large scale controlled trial based on children in the developed world which shows that extended breastfeeding (>2 years) has these benefits, nutritional and otherwise?

I am not disputing the benefits of breastfeeding per se. I am disputing that the benefits of continuing to do it once the child reaches 2 have been proved. In particular, there seems to be little evidence to support the claim that there are continued benefits to the child's immune system.

I would be more than happy to be confronted with proof.

Why do you need proof?

Why not look for proof that it is harmful in some way?

Because if it's NOT, and I don't think that anybody is going to be able to prove that something designed by nature for babies/children is harmful, why object to it continuing, and why put an end-point on it?

good point jamaisjedors.

to pick up another idea further down by pigletmania, sorry I am not picking on you just that I wanted to address this one earlier but was too busy:

"What if they still want to do it when their 8,9,10 when do you draw the line and say no? What if they are in school/middle school and still want to be bf on demand not just in the morning and evening, when they want it, especially in public. What if they have a sleepover or stay over at someones house and want a bf before bed. Imo its limiting the child, like tying the child to the mother."

your lack of experience has portrayed scenarios which have no basis in the reality of extended breastfeeding. If a child wants to go to a sleepover they will be too excited, even if the sleepover is at their house, imo, to think about breastfeeding. Mothers who EBF can go away for days at a time or longer and the child will happily settle for the cuddles of another familiar carer. When mum returns home, a feedy cuddle is a way of renewing that bond and the child gains a sense that all is still the same in their world.

This is what DR Jack Newman says about breastfeeding past 2 yrs old...

"But I want my baby to become independent
And breastfeeding makes the toddler dependent? Don?t believe it. The child who breastfeeds until he weans himself (usually from 2 to 4 years), is usually more independent, and, perhaps, more importantly, more secure in his independence. He has received comfort and security from the breast, until he is ready to make the step himself to stop. And when a child makes that step himself, he knows he has achieved something, he knows he has moved ahead. It is a milestone in his life of which he is proud.

Often we push children to become ?independent? too quickly. To sleep alone too soon, to wean from the breast too soon, to do without their parents too soon, to do everything too soon. Don?t push and the child will become independent soon enough. What?s the rush? Soon they will be leaving home. You want them to leave home at 14? If a need is met, it goes away. If a need is unmet (such as the need to breastfeed and be close to his mother), it remains a need well into childhood and even the teenage years.

Of course, breastfeeding can, in some situations, be used to foster an over-dependent relationship. But so can food or toilet training. The problem is not the breastfeeding. This is another issue."

from here

ArcticFox,

All the factors I mentioned in my last post are proven facts, feel free to goggle or check out www.kellymom.com for the specific studies. Many studies will include some older nurselings in the highest age category which might be over 12 month or over 18 months.

"What I am saying is where is the large scale controlled trial based on children in the developed world which shows that extended breastfeeding (>2 years) has these benefits, nutritional and otherwise?"
There are only two studies I have heard referred to which just looking at older children. I'll goggle them and post them in a minute.

Ann Sinnott author of Breastfeeding Older Children has brought up the lack of studies looking specifically at older nurselings and is calling for the researchers to look into this area.

That said, the lack of studies doesn't matter in the case of nutritional elements of breastfeeding. A grandmother who lactates to nurse her grandchild, produces breastmilk of good quality/quantity for the baby to grow. In the third world this is relatively commonplace.

If a grandmother can produce good quality/quantity of milk many years if not decades after giving birth there is nothing to suppose mothers nursing a scant few years after birth would have any issues with their milk. I would like to see the proof that breastmilk has no nutritional value when the child is a certain age.

Regarding the other benefits that I mentioned which are non nutrient based in nature. There are thousands of case studies in Ann Sinnott's book who all find that their children still respond to breastfeeding at many different ages.
Again I would like to see proof that something we know happens routinely until 2 years will suddenly stop.

"there seems to be little evidence to support the claim that there are continued benefits to the child's immune system."
We know the child's immunity system doesn't finish develop for several years I heard 5 and 7 years both suggested as time frames for this happens.

We know that breastfeeding helps boost children's immunity to illness which the mother and child encounter. We know this effect is a dose effect. i.e. The more feeds given the higher the effect.
Again I would like proof that this system works very well for 2 years and a day later fails to work.

Even if it was possible to prove that breastfeeding had a limited usefulness, it is still worth doing as it brings so much comfort to my older nursing children and they do need it. This is something I know to the bottom of my heart and could never be disproved.

A quote from Ann Sinnott from this website page, re comments at the bottom.

"There have been only two studies on longterm breastfed children. One to see if they matched non-beastfed children in nutrional status (the thinking being that because they are bfdg they aren't getting enough nutrients) ? they matched. The other is Karleen Gribble's study in Australia of 100 + children (the oldest 7yrs) - her study showed that mother motivation is an awareness of the child's wish to continue."

rainbowinthesky, "Yes, it was meant to be ironic!"
Sorry, I read your post the wrong way.

Thanks Babies . As I said that I keep an open mind about most things, Foxys article is very interesting too and yes I do agree with what it totally. Babies reference about mother motivation being one of the factors to bf for longer too, yes because if the mum does not want it than it might not contiune for long. For me personally i just would not like a 5,6,7 year old on my breast its just personal choice and preference.

To me it's quite simple. I liked jamaisjedors comment, why do we need proof that it is nutritionally beneficial? It is clearly not harmful, so who cares whether people do it or not. It's a personal choice, just like many other parenting decisions we all make.

I still bf DD 14 MO, but only 2 feeds a day. I don't bf when she is upset or during the night or in public, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with people that do. I really couldn't give a stuff. The more people accept that bf is natural for children of any age (note - children, not adults as that is just plain weird) the better. Who cares what age the children are. It really doesn't matter.

"I had to do this with dd with regards to the dummies and bottles or she would have had them forever." I really doubt that this would have happened, though. I think she would have eventually been ready to move on to different comforts or to grow out of the need for comforts altogether.

Much of what passes as a desire to foster 'healthy independence' in Western society is actually fear of dependence, imo. It makes people uncomfortable to see it in others, and provokes quite strong reactions.

Part of ebfing is trusting your child to do it as long as they need to, and ditching your fears about it going on forever. Trusting your child in an important area like this can make a real difference in your overall parenting approach, even as your children grow beyond nursing.

I think it's entirely up to people how long they want to breastfeed their children for - it's an entitely private issue and none of anyone else's business.

The only thing I took issue with in the article was the woman who said of her child who has been breasffeed:

'My children are all confident, but my youngest is especially secure and was never a clingy child. I can count on one hand the number of times she's been ill.

'Unlike the other two, she never suffered from eczema or had an upset tummy

I think it is unwise to imply that certain character traits come as a result of the way a child is fed.

There will be just as many clingy, confident and secure breastfed children as there are clingly, confident and secure formula fed children. The mode of feeding has no imact on character traits.

Similarly, I think it is unwise to imply that a breasfed child will rarely be ill or suffer from conditions such as excema or asthma. My sister has three children - all breastfed. The eldest sufferes from excema and terrible hayfever and the youngest, who was breastfed until 9 months of age suffers from asthma, seems to pick up every sickness bug going and was very severely affected by the chicken pox virus when he caught it and was laid very low for a number of weeks by what should be a mild childhood illness.

As a healthy immune system matures and develops it is entitely normal for children to contract and deal with illnesses. It's how they handle them that's the indicator of good overall health.

It's silly to expect that your child can go through life hardly ever being ill and even sillier to think or expect that if you breastfeed them you will give them some sort of immunity to all illness.

Well, I'm joining Greenmonkies and Foxytocin in the working mother feeding a toddler.

How come you have to be a SAHM to breastfeed? I manage to work three days a week and would easily manage full time and find I can feed my child on demand when I'm there. We co-sleep and I feed her sometimes at lunchtime.

Never expressed. Can't see the need. She drinks water when I'm not there and gets milk when I'm home.

(am slightly worried I should be expressing, she's 17 months)