But how do you know if your BF baby 'really' wants feeding at night?

[Tweetinat]

My DS is 16w and his night-time sleep/feeding is all over the place. Until his 12w jabs he would have a 4.5 - 5.5 hr (even 6/7hrs on occassion) gap after his last feed of the night and then it would go down to 3 - 4 hourly until morning. He would also go straight back to sleep after his feed too. Now its all over the place - he could wake 1.5 hr after being put down or it could be 3hrs. 3hrs is a rare exception now though and most nights it goes something like 1.5, 2, 1, 1.5, 2.5 hrs between feeds. I try not to pick him up at the first whimper to see if he'll settle but he very rarely does. More often than not he gets himself in a tizz and then takes ages to go back to sleep.

I do have a dummy to settle for naps during the day and sometimes at night I'll try to use it to see if he'll go back to sleep. This used to work but rarely does now though.

Now I know he's due a growth spurt at this age, but I really don't think he's having one as he only feeds for 5/6 mins (this is also consistent with the daytime too) and he doesn't go so frequently during the day. In fact, during the day I have to offer often or else he just doesn't 'demand'. I would have expected the frequency to increase during the day too if it was a growth spurt?

As he's eating so little in the day (suddenly dropped to 5/6 mins from a consistent 20) I've tried increasing the frequency of his feeds during the day to 'tank him up' and also stretching out the feeds to make him 'really hungry' in an attempt for him to take more, but its made no difference. After 5 mins he just pulls off, arches his back and starts to cry if I attempt to latch him on again. Neither of these seems to have had any affect on his nighttime sleep.

So, I'm wondering if he's nursing to simply go back to sleep but I don't want to deny him food if he really needs it. I'm just crap at reading his cues (night AND day) - so how do you do it? What can I do? What do you do? What cues do your 16w olds give you? I'm just so tired I don't know what to do next

I think if it was me I would co-sleep for now to maximise sleep for everyone. And once they start settling better at night again then put them back into their own moses basket/ or cot.

I found with my two that they started to sleep better once weaned.

Both my two started teething very early, so I used to try Bonjela teething gel at night and replacing dummy first, if they weren't due a feed.

Of course when they were/ are ill they do wake a lot, even in the first few days before the symptoms really start to show as well.

Have you looked at the Kellymom website? It can be very helpful: weblink

Also you could always ring La Leche for help over the phone, it's free and they're very helpful. Or pop along to a local BF clinic.

Of course maybe you need to jig their nap times a little. Are they sleeping too much in the day?

tweetinat i could have written your post! no clue!

I'm with you all the way in this. sounds like you're talking about my 23 week old. have to confess, started on the rusks ten days ago..she loves them but not stopping her waking for snacks through the night!frustrating I know

we've just been through this with 21 weeks old ds, i.e. 6 weeks of hell to tbh.

He's ff now, since 2 weeks ago, I just couldn't carry on it was a nightmare. things are settling back down gradually.

Do whatever you need do to keep your sanity. Not a popular viewpoint on here but with a 3.5 year old to look after too something had to give.

I'm actually relieved to be ff now.

At 16 weeks it is completely normal to want to feed at night. Please feed your baby if he asks for it. They do go through funny phases from time to time but this often settles down after a week or two.

My DD only ever fed for five minutes at a time. It's normal, as normal as the babies who feed for half an hour or longer. Some babies are just more efficient feeders. Even at this age, their stomachs are still small so they need feeding often. You've done really well to get to 16 weeks so try and hang on a little longer. You may very well find that it all settles down quite soon, though it probably seems endless right now. I'm really sorry you are so tired and you have every right to be fed up. Just hang on in there!

Co-sleeping worked for me. Even now at 9ish months, DS2 wakes up at night for a feed. If we are already in bed I can doze while he feeds and he generally nods off himself.

I agree with the others who have said that sometimes they just go through a stage and you need to ride it out. Personally I think that whether bf or ff, sometimes the desire to feed is for more than sustenance, it is more for the emotional contact. Babies go through big development leaps and I've found that the night-time waking often corresponds with this.

I was always worried about this with both my boys, it's so hard to know whether they're getting the right amount of milk - they ought to get fuel gauges to put on your boobs so you know how much they've had!

In both cases, I just decided to go with the flow. SO much easier than trying to work out if they were hungry, I just put them on the boob when they woke up. My second was a devil for comfort sucking - he would latch on for a moment and then just suck the nipple instead of feeding, but it took me ages to cotton on. In the end I always had a dummy with me, and if I suspected he was sucking rather than hungry I used to quickly whip the boob out and stick the dummy in. If he was hungry, you can bet he told me pretty quickly. Mostly though, he carried on sucking the dummy and fell asleep.

I think if you are feeding on demand, you need to assume that if they are asking, they are hungry. Both mine fed for anytime between 5 -30 mins at a time, so just let him stop when he wants, trying to get him to feed if he doesn't want to in the day is a sure way to drive yourself mad! Also, daytime routines never had any impact on night feeds for either of mine, growth spurt or not.

I would try and take comfort from the fact that you are doing a fantastic job to get to 16 weeks, and if you CAN get him to go back to sleep by feeding him, do so! At that age babies are very tuned in to their needs and hunger, so it is unlikely he will overeat. Just do what I did and shove your boob in his face and let him go back to sleep!! The quicker he goes back to sleep, the quicker you go back to sleep. And this won't last forever, honestly. Good luck

Another vote for co-sleeping here. DD2 sleeps in her moses basket for the first few hours (so me and DP get a cuddle) then after the first wake, she spends the rest of the night nibbling away at one boob then the other. The she gets a good sleep for an hour or so in the morning so I can concentrate on DD1.

Thank you all so much for your replies. I keep repeating the mantra 'it will pass' and I KNOW there are others out there who have it far far far worse than I do, but I just can't seem to stop dissolving into tears at least once a day

We do co-sleep from about 4/5 am when he starts to get super restless as I have found that the close comfort seems to settle him down quicker, but I really struggle to feed lying down. I can never seem to get him on his side facing me so he ends up twisting his neck at a funny angle and I feel guilty for trying to feed him like that and sit up anyway... He also tends to be on the 'wrong side' of me for the fullest boob too - so I end up contorting into strange positions.

His naps are variable depending on what time he woke up, but generally he goes down approx . 1 hr after waking for the first time and then 1.5-2 for every other nap of the day. He gets VERY grumpy if I don't stick to this religiously but sleeps for only 30mins - 1 hr at a time, so in total has around 3 to 3.5 hrs per day for naps. I don't think this is affecting his nighttime sleep and tbh I'd really struggle to cut any out as he'd be so unhappy and crying all the time.

I'm also really scared that just feeding every single time he wakes is setting myself up for major sucking-to-sleep associations later down the line and I have read (stupid, stupid I know) that the foundation for this is laid down around 4 months... Having said that, I am still feeding as I don't want my little man to be hungry. I just truly hate the middle of the nights - I just get so angry and frustrated and find myself saying horrible things. Sorry, this is turning into a moan and now he's screaming because he's tired and needs to go back to bed.

I think I'll try calling LLL if I get a chance (ha!) - the BF sessions round here ate pants so don't really trust them...

tweetinat, another post i could have written!

We do co-sleep from about 4/5 am - us too

really scared that just feeding every single time he wakes is setting myself up for major sucking-to-sleep associations later down the line and I have read (stupid, stupid I know) that the foundation for this is laid down around 4 months... - oh dear - us too, he's 4.5 months and seems to adore nursing to sleep... unless he is in pram or mobywrap...

...sigh... no idea really and soooo tired that cannot face any kind of action plan to change it, ifit even needs chnging??????

but I really struggle to feed lying down - i've only just got to grips with this - took ages of 'just keep trying'...

my mum says it'll pass, he's tiny!

development leaps make sense - he is RAPIDLY morphing into a little boy starting to roll, sucking toes etc etc

Oh honey, how you are feeling is completely normal! Have a read of this thread for reassurance here

At this stage mine only slept for 45 minutes each nap time. Try not to worry. Sounds perfectly normal to me how long they stay awake/ sleep.

It will all settle down in the end. Try and sleep when you can. Sleep when they sleep. I think chores sometimes have to wait at this stage, look after number 1!

Do you do a dream feed at 11pm? Maybe you could express something for that and your hubby can do it and instead you go to bed early and get up for the next feed when they cry? That way maybe if you put your ear plugs in you can get about 4-5 hours solid sleep perhaps if you went to bed at 8 or 9pm. Even doing this once a week may help you to feel a little more sane

Try this weblink for help on feeding lying down: here

I think if they're not coming into the bed until 5am that is not habit forming! Try not to worry (easier said than done) You're doing great and I used to cry loads and loads too. It's the hardest job in the world but the most satisfying being a mum. But I think you're being too hard on yourself here

I think if they have a good feed at 11pm and then wake at 1pm I would try a dummy to put them back to sleep (if they take one) and feed them when they next wake. Or try teething gel and then dummy. As it may not be hunger at all. Although if it's a growth spurt or they're getting close to 6 months then it may of course be hunger! You could try tanking them up in the day so maybe they're less hungry at night. There are so many suggestions on the kellymom website. You may have to click about to find them but do have a look.

Sorry to have abandoned this thread. Can you tell that nights are no better and so am trying to 'sleep when the baby sleeps'? All very well but it means I have NO time for myself :-(

Things have got no better - in fact they're worse. Last week I went for 44 hours where I saw a part of every single hour - I had no more than 45mins of consecutive sleep and even had a patch of 2am - 515am with a wide awake baby who just wanted to play. I don't think I have ever cried so much in my life - a day doesn't go by when I don't sob into his hair as he's fighting sleep yet again

DH has started to give him a bottle of EBM for his last feed before bed to see if it would help him go longer and it worked once (he went to 2am) but then gradually he's just started waking earlier and earlier again and we're back at midnight again for his first wake up. He's also suddenly decided that he HAS to be held in the night so I've been 'sleeping' lying up in bed. Oh my, what a whinge pot I am. The only consolation I've had is thinking about others going through the same thing, especially you Ruby wondering if you're also awake when I am

Thanks for all the links and more ideas T&CP - now that DH is happy giving a bottle when I'm on hand to help if needs be, we may graduate to a 'dreamfeed' to help me (and DS!) get an extra couple of hours. DS does take a dummy but not on waking any more - it won't settle him then, but will do (occassionally) when he wakes on being transferred back to his cot. We're persevering though, although I am worried that this is only making him worse as he then MUST have something to suck to sleep and so will never self-settle...

I am so at all my friends whose babies are going 9-6 (or equivalent) and who feel the need to tell me. I haven't really explained just how hard this is to many of my RL friends as I feel like a failure as a Mum . I know there's no sense in that statement but atm I just can't get beyond it.

Anyway - thanks all for letting me vent. Fingers crossed I can post back soon on how it's all going so much better .

Can't write much as i can hear her stirring for a feed but Google sleep regression. Made a lot of sense. I could have written your post before last Sat. 3 weeks it lasted. Then sat night, went back to one feed at 3am in the night. Feeding lots coincided with her rolling over etc. Her feeds last 10 mins max, even with both boobs brimming. She is 5 months now.
Hope it gets better soon

Sorry, no advice for the rest but just wanted to let you know that going from 30 minute feeds to 5-6 minute feeds doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't taking as much, it might just be that he has suddenly got super-efficient at feeding (this happens at around 4 months IIRC).

I'm in the same boat and my ds is 16w - non sleeping, feeding monster!!! it will pass but that's not much consolation. i feel your pain and i also have a 3yr old ds. tired does not even cover it!

Tweetinat I feel your pain! One day last week, I was literally weeping at anything and everything - serious sleep deprivation! I feel like the last month has been a non stop feeding frenzy! At one point I put him to bed at 6 as normal and he woke up at 7:30, then 9, then 1130 etc etc. He also got very very distracted during the day and wouldn't feed for longer than a minute or so. He would then wake up all night starving! I tried to feed him as often as possible during the day, especially before naps or as soon as he woke up from a nap. He would sometimes go back to sleep too - I think HE was tired from interrupted sleep at night too. He also used to 'sing' at 4am in his cot, and TBH I left him to it, unless it turned to crying. Surprisingly he started going back to sleep on his own. Now I change his nappy, put him back - no talking, nothing, and he will play with rabbit and go back to sleep, I think (although he could play with rabbit for hours for all I know cos I g back to bed!)

Anyway, suddenly, literally OVERNIGHT, he is not so hungry. I even got a few five hour stretches of sleep last week and the difference it makes - OMG! He is now 23 weeks. He feeds at relatively 'normal' intervals during the day (although I do try to catch him when sleepy, or having just woken up. Either side of a 45minute nap sometimes) say, 2/3/4 hourly. And last night he went to bed at 6, fed at 1045 330, and then woke up at 6 - gasp! He didn't even come into bed with us!

Obviously this is subject to change, and there is no guarantee but i suppose my mum is right when she says its a phase ad i should jus try and enjoy it . Also, I keep thinking how on earth would I be able to do this if I had a toddler/older child - Tigerlily I'm impressed!

I've heard there is another growth spurt at six weeks though so aaaaaahhhhhh its so not over yet!

Oh, and I have taken to ignoring the 2am 'milk please ' call, unless it escalates. Within 30 seconds, he totally loses power and the mutterings get sleepier and sleepier and that buys me another hour or two. I do wake up but at least I don't have to get out of bed, and I don't fully wake up IYSWIM.

"I've heard there is another growth spurt at six weeks though so aaaaaahhhhhh its so not over yet!"

six months?!

having just had the night from hell with DD2 (21 weeks) I sympathise. We're co-sleeping (sleeping????) She came to bed with us at 10,had a feed, was up again at 11.30, came into bed with us, fed on and off constantly til about 3- got given to Daddy to put her at his side, up again at 5 for a feed and then was restless til I finally got up with her at 6.30. We don't like leaving her to cry because she wakes her sister. She's now sound asleep and I'm trying to get DD1 (who's off school today) dressed and sorted to have a day out. Don't have the heart to wake DD2 to dress her.

DD1 was just about sleeping through at this stage, keep hoping for that wonderful night when you wake with the alarm having had a full nights sleep. One day.

I'm so sorry things are no better but worse since I last posted on here

Can your mum or anyone look after the baby for a couple of hours whilst you get a bit of kip in the day? Things always look so much worse when exhausted. I feel your pain as both mine have gone through stages like this.

*tweet I'm going through a similar thing with my now 23 week DS. He's far too distracted to feed in the day so more at night. Like ruby I now feed in the day around naps in a dim room which helps him focus.

Sometimes DH will attempt to resettle DS at night which can buy me another hour (I'll sleep in the spare room).

This has been happening since 12 weeks... I think 3-6 months is pretty hard work from what I've read and experienced so far!

As for the sucking to sleep asssociation, I've given up trying to get DS to self settle for now (he has done it occasionally in the night) as I'm just trying to survive. He can be rocked to sleep and also falls asleep in the pram and sling so I know he can fall asleep without boob - it's just his preferred method sometimes!

I've decided to start trying to teach self settling at bedtime by gradually doing his feed after his bath with the light on (currently done in the dark as he gets distracted if not relaxed enough) and work up to having him fall asleep after feeding not during... I expect it will take weeks!

Anyway I'm living in hope that this too shall pass. I'm also doubting whether "teaching" self settling will help. My friend taught her baby but he still wakes up every 2 hours at night and he's a similar age to my DS!

Thank you all so much for your posts. We had no internet since I last posted so I've only just been able to get back online and check the replies.

Sadly things are no better - still multiple night wakings for feeds (which I can cope with, just!) and just 2/3 hour wide awake and playing stretches .The plan is that DH is going to start giving a bottle of ebm for the first waking of the night (whether that's at 11pm or 2am) to give me a break - once I feel more rested, then we can start to tackle the rest... We've also moved into the spare room in case we were waking him in the night (not really) but it does mean that now I stay awake whilst feeding him as I'm up in a chair rather than in bed which surprisingly helps. It means that I don't wake up after an hour to find him de-latched and put him in his cot, only for him to wake an hour later.

Starlight - thanks for that link. I've seen it before and it does make lots of sense... Keeping my fingers crossed that it will pass super soon, especially as he's eating frequently in the day now.

MrsFlyingKebab - thank you - will go and do that right now. I'm guessing it's similar to the KellyMom link but it would be good to read about it from other sources too. This has been ongoing for about 6-8 weeks now though, so surely it must pass soon!

BertieBotts - that is reassuring, thank you! I think he must have become superefficient as the suction he can get is sometimes very painful!!

Tigerlily1 - Wow - I don't know how people cope when they have other DCs to contend with. I have a newfound respect for anyone with more than one kid! This experience has convinced me that I am not having any more children. What if I had a baby who was colic'y or reflux'y? I'm in a permanently foul mood and it wouldn't be fair to subject a toddler to that.

Ruby - I am so pleased to hear that you made it out the other side !! Fingers crossed that you're still getting lots of sleep and nothing has changed since you posted!

lal123 - crap isn't it? You're not on your own though, take heart

teaandcakeplease - sadly I don't have any family close by who could help out, but my neighbour stopped DH the other day and offered to look after him for an afternoon (I'd previously had a whinge to her) so I may take her up on her offer soon!

Iggybuff - I know exactly what you mean about doing whatever it takes to survive! I too keep trying to gradually change the bedtime routine so that he will fall asleep after his feed, but at the mo I'm so knackered that I just want him in bed asap so I can watch 1/2 hr of telly before I go to bed!