Questions re bf/expressing/supply/mixed feeding

[Suburbanite]

Hello all

DS2 is now 9 days old, and I have a few questions I am hoping you can help with. It's my first serious attempt at BF, as DS1 just didn't take to it at all & I am afraid I moved to FF early on.

As he is v young, DS2 is still at the stage where he is feeding every 2-3 hours, and happily stays on for an hour+. I have started to recognise when he is just comfort sucking vs actual feeding, so he gets a dummy sometimes.

My questions are:

• sometimes my boobs feel so full that I don't even want to wait 3 hours for him to feed! But if I express to ease some of the leaking, then I am encouraging more milk supply, no? So it would in fact get worse! What can I do - is there a ''safe'' small amount I can express that won't encourage my boobs into overdrive??

• ...and conversely...for various reasons, I'm not going to be able to manage such prolonged feeding at every feed time: eg next week, when DH is back at work, and all visitors have gone, I am going to have to collect DS1 from nursery. As I am expressing once during the night (DH does a FF then) I would have one bottle of EBM to give DS2, but at the moment I land up using this between feeds from me in the day, when my nipples just can't take the sucking any more but he seems to want to feed AGAIN (latch is finally OK he just sucks really hard!) Would it be better to express again during the day (given above Q re leaking) or give another FF?

• I realise that mixed feeding this early on is not ideal, but I am working on the basis that I am doing what I need to do to manage (I was expecting a change going to 2 DCs, but goodness - didn't quite realise how much!) and I am in any case doing 100% better than last time. Am I delusional?!?

I am following other advice from MW to take one day at a time, so I am thinking in days/weeks rather than months... but how long can I keep up this kind of approach?

• and finally: I know this probably doesn't have a hard and fast response - but is it better to leave DS2 to wake up and feed when he's ready, or if I need to try and fit a feed around going out, do I feed him when I want to? Actually, having read that back, he probably won't feed if he's not ready, will he?!

Grateful for any advice/tips you can share

I can't answer on most of the points, but I know that if I am going out and my S hasn't fed for a wee while, I will sometimes offer him a feed before leaving to make things a bit easier.

You are right though, if he doesn't want it he probably won't take it.

I have heard that you can just 'take the pressure off' by expressing a little bit, hopefully one of the more experienced people can help you with that.

All the best, I have found one (now 20wks) time consuming, so it sounds like hard work when the next one arrives!

Thanks Jaggy

Anyone else out there with some pearls of wisdom for me?!

Sounds to me like you've got it sorted and are doing really well. Especially with having another child too!
I would say if you express to ease it a bit you will just promote the production of more milk so could maybe just express enough to ease the feeling of about to explode. Baby is only 9 days old and you're expressing so your boobs might be a bit confused as to how much they should be producing! I didn't express until a few weeks in and my supply and need seemed to fall into synch with each other before this. This may be why I can only express a small amount at a time though.
I think you're right to take it one day at a time but don't even be thinking beyond that because you'll have the whole growth spurt manic feeding to contend with out of the blue and then there's the cluster feeding. Is baby doing this of an evening?
I agree with the post about a quick feed before you go out. I think do this. Nappy change to wake him if need be and a snack just to put him on and buy me some time.
I'd love to be able to needs some ebm during the day to give me a break but I just can't express enough. Try rubbing some milk into your nipples after each feed to take the edge off. This really works.
Not sure I've answered many of your questions well but good luck! I need to post about expressing now!

Hi, well done you for getting this far.
Yes, I think you're thinking too far ahead and expressing this early may confuse your supply.
Something that I learned at LaLeche Peer support training was that your a factory, not a warehouse... meaning, you use what you have and your body makes more as you feed. Then inbetween times it replenishes but you're not like a wrung out sponge when you've finished a feed. Baby finishes when they are full, not when you're 'empty'.
With my DC2 I never really got to find the time to sit express much..too much going on.
Not sure if this helps any, but a big pat on the back for you and keep going. You know whats best for your baby.

Hi, all this expressing sounds like hard work to me, especially so early on, what's the point of DH giving FF when you are up anyway expressing - personally I would make the most of the extra sleep! It is still early so your boobs will soon settle down and not feel so full. Regards timing, early on with DD3 I would offer a top up BF to get me through the school run etc even if she was not asking to be fed, that would save any meltdowns whilst out. if DD not hungry then would not take but usually enough to last until get back for a full feed. I would wake her to do this. Now she is a bit older (15 weeks) I can time things to fit roughly around her feeds and need to be in other places for DD1 and DD2!

You are doing really well suburbanite and you sound like you really want to do stick this one out.

If you want to express some off for comfort that is a good idea. It means that your baby will be able to latch on easier as the tissue around the nipple and areola will be softer so he is likely attach better. Poor attachment causes soreness damage. Your body is in a period where it is calibrating your supply expressing small amounts off does not affect the calibration process and after 2 or 3 weeks you should start to see your supply 'settling' down and no longer need to express some off for comfort. Expressing off for comfort can also help you prevent mastitis and blocked ducts which as you can imagine, is a good thing.

Despite being told by MW that your latch is ok, it sounds like it isn't. The 'sucking hard' feeling shouldn't be there. Please find a Baby Cafe in your area or another baby group preferably led by a bfc who is working with the ABM, BfN, LLL or NCT. These women will have a lot of experience assessing and tweaking position and attachment and at a group will be able to observe a whole feed which is important to determine if you have a good latch. A baby who is feeding for 1hr+ is sometimes not feeding effectively thereby taking much longer to feed.

In the meantime, Dr Jack Newman has some great information and videos on position and attachment. so a browse round his site may be useful.

Try not to give include another ff. It can be the start of the slippery slope to full ff at this stage.

Right now, does he stay awake throught the whole 1hr plus feed?

You say your nipples can only take so much. Are they getting sore from feeding? When a feed stops, are they still round, or have they changed shape? If so, this means the attachment isn't quite right, as foxytocin says.

As for the idea that he is sucking 'just for comfort' - is that a bad thing? How many things to adults do 'just for comfort'?

Thanks for all the replies, I'll try and answer all the questions:

He's definitely cluster feeding - most of the day, and certainly early evening.

Today, he fed for about 2 hours this morning, slept for 4.5 hours and then has been feeding since 4pm.

He doesn't stay awake through the whole feed - and we do have nappy changes (plenty of poo coming out!) etc during the session. He will seem as if he has fallen into a good sleep, mouth open and he's come off the nipple himself...but if I move to put him into his pram to sleep, he wakes up and starts rooting again!

My nipples do stay round when we've finished feeding, so I although the latch may not be perfect (and if I can get out of the house long enough, I will track down a Baby Cafe) it doesn't leave the lipstick shape.
The sucking feeling seems to be wearing off a bit now, so I figured I am just getting used to it.

I thought of an additional question: the MW told me he should (!) feed for 20 mins on one breast only. Lots of other people seem to offer both in one feed...so now I am confused about what the best approach is. Does it really make any difference?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer, I appreciate your help

Hi suburbanite

I think the usual 'advice' is to let the baby feed on one breast until they come off, then offer the other, which they may or may not take.

There is no set time they should feed for, it is up to them! - as long as you are confident he is feeding well - look for movement of the jaw next to the ear and listen for swallowing.

If he's taking an hour to feed, you could try letting him feed on the first breast for as long as he is doing the good jaw action and swallowing - if he falls asleep, try gently taking him off and offering the other breast then - he'll get a new letdown of milk from that breast and may 'wake up' and do some good solid feeding.

As others have said, wouldn't bother with the expressing / bottle feed at this early stage. Hand express a bit if you feel exploding.

things sound better with your last post suburbanite. some latching problems sort themselves out on their own, I understand and maybe that is what has happened for you and your baby. nipples don't 'get used to it' as people seem to say.

One thing you can try and do is to not let him go too long between feeds during the day. If he can go for more or less 2 hrs between feeds during the day and up to 5 at night it can get them on a more adult friendly day / night routine.

What you can try to also get the day feeds to shorten is to swap sides before he falls asleep on one side. the swapping and stronger milk flow will wake him up and get him to feed more quickly. I used to put dd2 in a sling straight after feeding her
and she'd go off to sleep and I could get on with doing what I had to do and look after dd1 without her waking up straight after.

Sadly some midwives and hvs still like to tell mums to time feeds and offer only one breast. That is not a good idea. Your baby will tell you when he's had enough by coming off on his own accord. or refusing to take another side

I am doing better now, thank you.
I've now done 2 nights without the FF - my logic for that approach was that expressing & bottle feeding take much less time than DS2 wants to spend on the breast...well, it seemed logical to my addled brain at the time! Whilst I haven't fully cracked feeding whilst sleeping, I am at least dozing, so I don't feel as bad as I thought (but I am sure there is time for that )

I also feel a bit more relaxed about spending all this time feeding, now that the visitors have gone, and DH is back at work.

HV has been today, and he has gained weight so he is obviously getting enough to eat.

I really didn't think I would even get this far, so thanks for your encouragement and advice, and my next goal is to do a whole week with no FF.

Hooray for you. You are doing the right thing by setting yourself small achievable goals.

And by dozing with her you are doing what it best for both of you. Catching up on your rest while maximising feed times. This is a small step in learning how to feed through the night with confidence that you won't squash them. The feeding lying down/asleep at night is a confidence thing. Your body and your baby already know what to do. You just have to trust yourselves now that you can.

Once he is a bit older he will be feeding quite fast and you will find it is easier to just pop him on and keep topping him up through the day, straight from the tap than it is to express and bottle feed.

Happy feedy snuggles.