Never really managed full bf-ing and feel very down even after 16 months - can anyone help?

[MiniMousse]

Ok, I'll try and keep this brief but I fear it is going to be long!

My dd is now 16 months and I am still bf-ing tho to be honest it is a token effort and I don't really think she gets much!

She was born full term, easy labour and delivery, but v quick so she was on one of those little hot bed things for 2-3 hrs as she was a bit blue. struggled with bfing in early weeks - got thrush, nipples so sore from her bad latch they went BLACK, I seemed to be feeding her for about 1.5 to 2 hrs each feed, and she never 'came off the breast satisfied' as the books said, she just went on and on sucking, but either fell asleep thru exhaustion or cried and cried.

By 8 wks she had dropped from 50th to below the 2nd centile. She was sooo skinny and wasn't pooing or peeing much. I still soldiered on with the bfing as all the books and classes seemed to imply that 'anyone can bf and if you don't its because you are too shy/can't be arsed/are not a good mother'. I also resisted formula supplements as again, classes had drummed into me that 'supplementing damages your supply therefore you should avoid it'.

By this time I was in an exhausted state, and she was tiny tiny tiny. Started formula but kept trying to reduce it, I would put her on the breast for generally about 1.5 hours, and then give her half the formula amount recommended for her age, and at the end she would still be hungry. After the formula, I would express, then the 3 hrs fronm feed to feed would be up, and we'd be back to the start of the whole circus again, it was like groundhog day.

I tried reflexology (for me), cranial osteopathy (for her), special herbal nursing tea, fenugreek, ate the best quality food I could, drank loads of fluid. Nothing seemed to improve my supply.

I expressed till I felt like a cow in a dairy unit. I bought / hired / borrowed a total FIVE different pumps in my quest to make this whole thing work. I only ever got about 30ml max, even if I tried expressing before I fed her. My boobs never did the whole engorgement thing after birth, though they did occasionally feel a bit pumped up at times in the following months. And sometimes I would find they had leaked in the mornings when I woke up. I never had to wear breastpads.

Eventually caved in and started full on formula feeds but still bf-ed as well. She started to thrive and is now on the 91st centile! So it seems obvious I just never produced enough milk.

One boob seems to produce, the other just never really got going, even when expressing it wouldn't really produce much, just the odd drip. When her teeth arrived she vented her frustration on the non-productive boob by biting for a bit, but it stopped after a few weeks thank god!

Went to see my neighbour today who has an 8 wk old and she was talking about how quickly she could fill the bottle when pumping (she has borrowed one of my old pumps) and it just made me feel heartbroken. I never really did more than just cover the bottom of the bottle when I used it!

I am just hoping someone here might be able to help me make sense of why I never produced enough milk to feed my baby, despite all my efforts. I feel so guilty 1)that I couldn't satisfy her and 2)that my doggedness to carry on bfing led to her losing so much weight.

As I said above, all the classes / books / BF counsellors seemed to imply that EVERYONE can bf and if you don't, its a COGNITIVE reason (ie you don't want to, or are embarassed in some way) rather than physical. I think I still have those messages going round in my head to be honest and I just feel so bad.

Oh yes, and in case it is relevant, I have endometriosis. Does anyone think there's a link between endo and hormone issues meaning you can't bf?

I'm so sorry - what a hard time you've had. Hope someone will be along soon with some help.

You sound like a wonderful mum!

Oh minimouse how absolutely rotten for you. I have had some of the same experience although I didn't manage to continue to feed all the way through til 16 months, that's amazing!

I also have endo btw

My conclusion after lots of research is that i have low glandular tissue, particularly in my left breast. I got close to a full supply with my second baby and on 150mg/day of domperidone. Initially I pumped after every feed etc to try and build supply, and it worked to some extent, but not without the dom. I used top up bottles after each feed with my DD, my first baby, and an SNS with my son. I think I built glandular tissue during my efforts with my daughter and my pregancies, which has enabled me to have a more substantial supply with my son.

I totally concur about all the bfeeding helpline people, they mean well but they have been brainwashed that everyone has a full supply if they try hard enough etc etc. I found only a couple of proper breastfeeding counsellors (IBCLC qualified) who were actually helpful, particularly the one I saw with my son. A lot of advice made me feel so much worse because obviously I just wasn't trying hard enough, even though I did nothing but feed and pump.

One site that may help you is www.mobimotherhood.org/MM/default.aspx. It's a resource for women like us who really wanted to breastfeed but were not able to for whatever reason. They have a good yahoo group where you can post your story and get a lot of support. It might help with the mourning process. you might also consider a counsellor, i think there is a real sense of loss involved that you are acknowledging here and might want help with working through.

I totally feel for you. It is just so incredibly disappointing not to be able to do this thing that apparently everyone else can do and that you so desperately wanted to do for your child.

Firstly, congratulations on still breastfeeding despite your doubts. Your baby is still benefiting.

How much you pump says nothing about how much milk you make. Neither does whether or not you leaked. Some women, like myself, never expreienced engorgement.

I cannot explain the weight difference. Who if anyone have a good look at your latching in the early days? Did anyone check for tongue tie? There are also other oral anomalies which can also explain why your baby may not have been removing milk effectively but TT is the most common.

Who suggested that you express milk? When you say 'breastfeeding counsellors' who are you referring to? (Lots of people call themselves bfc but are not really one.)

Endometriosis AFAIK does not impact milk supply. In fact it tends to improve if a mum breastfeeds.

Oh, Im going to get shot down in flames here but ....sometimes formula feeding is the only way to go. Yes breast IS best, but whats actually more important is that baby is healthy and thrives. Your DD obviously wasnt thriving while being BF, so putting her onto formula was the best thing you could do for her as a mother.

Please please dont feel you have failed as a mother, as a woman or as a human. It is possible to be unable to BF - I wasn't. My DS BF for only 3 weeks before I had to put him on formula. From the very first bottle I knew Id made the best decision for him. It was about babys welfare, not about me after all.

By the way, my DS is now 13, and a strapping 5'6", and far healthier than any of his friends, and certainly far healthier than his BF cousin of the same age.

You poor thing. I am amazed at your determination and persistence in feeding your daughter. Plus you are still feeding her.
Please be kind to yourself. It sounds like you did everything within your power and you are a brilliant mum.

Did anyone look at you feeding? It strikes me you may be more a victim of poor support out there..

I had problems feeding dd (now 4) and was very down and upset about it for a long long time leading me to feel I didn't want any more children. I made my peace with time, and went on to have ds late last year. Bf hasn't gone perfectly this time either as he dropped 4 centiles despite having tongue tie snipped. I sought all the help I could find (in person and online) but couldn't resolve some of the issues. I'm now mixed feeding him.

I've made my peace with it a whole lot quicker this time as I am certain i have done all that I could. As a very good friend pointed out, I have DD to remind me that I am a good mum and there are many other ways you can nurture your children.

Plan to have a look at that website myself.

Oh wow thank you everyone for your replies! It has really cheered me up to recieve all your support.

Thalia - I wondered about low glandular tissue too - I have and always have had big boobs, but the non-productive boob is smaller and sort of doesn't have the same texture under the skin if you see what I mean - its sort of more squishy? So maybe that's part of the problem. It would be really interesting to find out if endo is related to bf issues. My periods started again like clockwork 6 weeks after birth - I have always wondered if the endo hormones were just so hell-bent on breaking through they overpowered everything else? On a positive note though the pain since giving birth is negligible, and I hardly ever have to take pain killers now which is a big change from before I got pg. In fact its one of the reasons I am still continuing to bf ven though I don't think I produce that much.
I never tried domperidone as my GP said it was a no-no. Since discovered I could have just bought it over the counter! Maybe I should try some now anyway and just see what hhhappens?

Foxy - yes there were questions about possible tongue tie but seeing a different midwife / HV / bf clinic person each time really didn't help with a definitive diagnosis so nothiing was done about it. When she was born her lower jaw was quite sort of receeding, it has much improved now but at the time I think it meant her top gum was much 'higher' than her lower gum and so she was 'chomping' on the nipple?

Sukie - I totally agree the baby's health is more important, its just that at the time I couldn't see it as I felt like such a failure trying and failing to do the thing I 'was supposed to do'... I was formula fed too and I grew to 5ft 11ins so def nothing wrong with bottlefeeding! Its just that I so so so wanted to exclusively bf and I think tbh seeing my neighbour producing gallons and gallons of milk just triggered it off again for me.

hairtwiddler - God, half the population of my county had a look at my boobs - or that's what it felt like at the time! I went to the bf clinic at the hosp, the midwives who came to my house tried to help, and of course the midwives in the hosp when dd was born. I think part of the problem was that a different person came each time, so there was no consistency. I do remember one lovely midwife in the hosp the night after I gave birth who could obv see I was exhausted. She kindly hand expressed me and got the colostrum off and then fed it to dd with a syringe, and I am eternally grateful to her for that - at least dd got the good stuff at the beginning! But after that it was really the luck of the draw with different people at the clinic / coming to the house. It was a bit of a circus!

It brings it all up to the surface when you see other people doing something so effortlessly that you struggled so hard to do. I could never express anything worth a damn either.

My experience with ds ended up with mostly formula but still bf. In fact I am still feeding him, he is three now. You did everything you could, but I do know that it is still sad to think of the breastfeeding relationship you thought you were going to have. In my experience it isn't easy to let it go until you have really expressed what it meant to you. Perhaps this thread will be the trigger that enables you to let it go, and truly feel that you did your best, as indeed you did.

Your post made me cry! I do understand the guilt thing,my dd had a slight tongue tie and I had thrush and the first few weeks were very hard and she took three weeks to get back to her birth weight,I only had a really short time of that as after seeing a bf counsellor who helped me latch her on and got me to get rid of the nipple shields I was using to help the pain,my supply was fine and dd was ok.I look back on those few weeks and how she was trying for ages to feed and how she seemed hungry and I feel terrible . you have done amazingly,you sound like a lovely mother,and it is possible you might have a better feeding experience if you have another baby,I am glad your dd is doing well.

Aaaah - it is bringing it all back to me, my horrendous time I had with ds1. Tears, tantrums and total agony - and that was mem not Ds1!I did manage six months of bf, but aided by quite a few bottles at certain times too. It was knackering and ever so stressful. What's domperidone, sounds fantastic?
Anyway, guess what, ds2 was a fab feeder and for whatever reason it all went swimmingly the next time round. he literally never had a bottle, went straight from full time bf to a cup aged one.
I thought my boobs had somehow learned to do it better the next time round. I bet that is what will happen if you have another. But even if you don't - you are still bf-ing at 16 months!! - have you any idea how unusual and amazing that is in this country? Your baby has had months and months of the good stuff from you - topped up with some pretty great stuff from Aptimil or whatever - don't feel bad about it! You sound like a really great mum to me.

It's all coming back to me too. And d'you know what? Now that my DD has grown up to the grand old age of two and a bit, and is walking and talking and doing all sorts of wonderful things, I finally realise that bf is one of a hundred different choices that I will need to make when raising my child.

I'll be honest, my hormones were raging until I stopped bf, and, perhaps unexpectedly, it was only when I stopped that I started to feel better about mixed feeding. It gave me some distance, and I stopped being reminded of my "failure" every day. Now I honestly can't remember all of the details of her weight and feeds etc. which like you I could reel off perfectly when she was smaller. They no longer matter.

A lot of us, like you, get twinges when we see other mums popping their babies on for ten minutes and then merrily getting on with their lives. But we tried my very very best (I always say to anyone who listened that bf was far far harder than labour) and life is just too short for guilt. It can seriously take over and stop you enjoying your lovely, healthy, growing-up-so-fast baby. You are doing sooooo well, fgs don't beat yourself up MiniMousse.

I think that hairtwiddler is onto something as you suspect that having lots of people giving you conflicting advice was harmful. This naturally led to confusion and frustration for you and it is symptomatic of the piss poor training and support which exist in health care professionals. The very people who should have a good fundamental grounding in breastfeeding and who can recognise early problems and then refer you onto more specialist feeding consultants. I am really sorry the support you had was so lacking. You did not fail. Your support system failed you and your baby.

Did you have any soreness in the early days? It seems that receding chins in a baby can cause problems in latching. I only did a quick google so don't think I am some sort of expert. I can tell you though that when babies latch on, they have to get a good mouthful of aerola and breast tissue with the lower jaw so a receding chin will hamper this. There is a certain hold which can aid the latching process but it takes a skilled person to identify this difficulty and guide you into teaching the latching technique. Did other people find the receding chin noticeable or was it just you?

In the early days, the first 6 weeks or so, your baby is calibrating with your body, telling your breasts. It is a hormonal feedback system which tells your body how much milk to produce. This is why a woman can breastfeed twins (or triplets) because double the stimulation of effectively feeding babies tells your body to produce double the milk. This is why a breastfed baby should have unrestricted feeds in the early days and shouldn't be put in a feeding routine. So in your case it may have been that if your baby was receiving insufficient milk due to attachment difficulties in the early days then your body does not lay down enough (i think) milk producing cells to produce enough milk for later weeks and months. Someone below mentioned low glandular tissue. Insufficient stimulation can result in this. Though it is not the only thing. If you search MN archives with 'hypoplastic breasts' there is a thread about this condition which is a biological condition which some women suffer.

Please do not feel like you harmed your baby. I would hate you to feel like this happened. I hope that you find answers as it sounds to me that you are on a quest for answers which, in my experience, has been a good thing.

With a subsequent child, you can as long as the latch is correct, feed exclusively til at least 6 months. I hope my post has been helpful. Please contact a breastfeeding supportline if you feel you need to talk this through with someone who is trained to listen to you and has the knowledge of breastfeeding to give you adequate information as well as emotional support. Google ABM, NCT, NBH, LLL or BfN. these are the breastfeeding supportlines. FYI, I am a mother supporter with the ABM.

Thanks OP for sharing and for the supportive messages. I'm in a similar position myself although I dare say I caved in to mix feeding long before OP did.

Thanks to lack of adaquete support in hospital, I did not properly start BFing until day 4 and only because I asked to be discharged on Day 2. My latch was wrong and baby was not suckling properly. So my milk did not come in when it should have and I preceeded to have a whole bunch of problems BFing.

I kept meaning to come onto MNet to read up on this forum but I could barely manage to use the loo or eat a meal between feeds/failing to express, let alone sleep or log onto the internet. Now, 3 weeks on and having resorted to mixed feeding, I am regaining my sanity and managing to eat regularly and not stress too much about not being able to BF, and consequently my milk supply is increasing and I live in the hope that I will be able to drop the formula in the near future. In the meantime I am starting to learn to love BFing time and grateful for the presence of mind and time to enjoy the baby.

Thanks so much for all these messages everyone - I really feel buoyed up by the support, and I am starting to feel better about the fact that I did try so hard to feed her in the best way I could.
I really think that the latch issue seems to be crucial from what everyone here is saying, and its good to know that this can be sorted for future babies - sadly for me, altho I would love to have another baby, I think this is an unlikely possibility as I am a single parent (split from ex when I was pg), but I live in hope!