midwife said I need to top up DS with formula - don't want to do this is there any way I can up my milk supply?

[stellamel]

Have posted before but things slightly different now.

DS is 15 days old, feeds none stop, except at night where he manages 3 hrs of sleep at a time, before wanting feed. My breasts feel 'empty' most of the time because of the constant feeding, if I squeeze them a little comes out but no more. He has stayed the same weight since Sat, has only had one pooey nappy in 3 days, but plenty of wet nappies tho.

Because he hadn't gained weight yesterday MW wants me to top up with formula, which I don't want to do, but I also don't want to hurt my baby. He gets really fussy in the eve, from 6-10pm when i go to bed and feed him lying down - then he goes to sleep. He won't sleep in the day unless in the car or walking in pram. He cries after 5mins off the boob, until I put him back on.

When he's on 'messes' about a lot stopping and starting and just using my nipple like a dummy. He can feed properly - I can hear him drinkng, but he does less of it than the messing Around.

Have ordered a sling to try and help.

Tried expressing in the night last night and only managed 1/2 oz.

Am desperate to continue BF but feel like I am going to have to switch to formula soon as am a wits end.

Am sacrificing time with my 3yold dd too as she can't have mummy's attention cos I can"t get off the settee.

Please, please any advice on how I can sort this out, am devastated to be failing my DS, I tried and failed to BF my DD so this means everything to me.

TIA

sorry for crap wording, am typing 1 handed!

Is there any other reason why the midwife wants you to top up with formula, other than no wieght gain between Saturday and Wednesday?

If he hadn't been weighed, would you think that there were a problem? Is he dehydrated at all ("loose" skin if you pinch him)?

If either of those answers is "yes" then maybe you should think of some formual.

But I suspect that the answer is "no", you don't need to give up hope yet. Is there is abreast feeding counsellor you can talk to? I'm sure others will come on with the appropriate help line numbers. Is your latch OK? Have you tried a babymoon..... and so on

I was going to suggest getting someone to look after your todler and having a baby moon, lots of rest and sleep for both of you. Lots of frequent feeding will be helping to build up your supply.

Have you checked his latch/checked for tongue tie that sort of thing. If he's not getting a deep latch he may not be feeding efficiently.

fenugreek capsules - they are a galactologue. i took three three times a day for about four days to up my supply when i was bfing and it helped. loads of water as well. i bf until dd was eight months but always felt like my supply was only just adequate - not one of those women who could easily express a lot or anything.

i should warn you, the fenugreek capsules (holland and barrett sell them) do make you a bit smelly while you are taking them...

The only thing that I know has worked for me and for others is
more sleep
more rest
more food
more relaxed mother more milk.

I think bf is so hard because the above is so hard for so many people. You need a lot of support to pull it off so it's a question of what you can try to pull off.
It's really hard to do.

Good luck.

Hi Stellamel,

Firstly, you are not failing your DS! BF takes a while to get the hang of - for both of you. Let him feed as much as he wants - try skin to skin - have a few days in bed together with someone else doing all the toddler care and cooking etc (if that's at all possible). Your supply will increase if you let him feed.

You could try taking fenugreek tablets if you wanted to feel like you were doing all you could - i did, and i dont know if they helped but made me feel like i was 'doing something'.

you could also do with your latch being checked out by a breastfeeding supporter in person - just to make sure he is feeding effectively and not wasting effort. Do you have a Le Leche League locally? the NCT may have a BF counsellor near you, or try the Breastfeeding Network.

Have a chat to someone on this helpline to give you a bit more confidence in yourself.
National Breastfeeding Helpline 0300 100 0212

Its very early days, and you need to congratulate yourself for not giving up, and get some real life help. If you top him up with formula your supply won't increase, and it may produce a vicious circle in which you end up topping up more and more and diminishing your supply. Get to see someone in the flesh - and feed feed feed!

Congratulations btw

Shout for Tiktok.

I do think there isn't enough information here to be able to establish what is happening.

1. Has the midwife explained why the top ups are needed ?

1. What was your babies birth weight and current weight ?

1. Wet nappies are good but it is expected that a baby of this age should be producing one or two poos a day. That is not to say this shows a problem, just that the baby should be looked at by a HCP i.e. your midwife.

I love my slings, it is so calming for both baby and you, cuddled up together.

Regarding expressing milk, it is not a reflection of your milk supply. Did the midwife ask you to express ?

Hopefully Tiktok will post.

I've read on here that oats can really up your supply as well (no personal experience, just repeating MN advice)

I feel your pain, having been through it. I gave up with my first child as I couldn't produce enough milk to feed her. I refused to top up after all the propaganda from my NCT group and ended up giving up.

With my second I topped up when I was drained of milk as he would graze all day. It gave me a chance to fill up again. This worked perfectly for me and he was breastfed for 2 years!

stellamel - sorry to hear how upset you are

Obviously the midwife has seen your baby and has a full idea of what's been happening...is there any chance of a second opinion? No weight gain in 5 days is unusual in a newborn, as is the lack of poo, but on their own they are not a sign of anything. If he has gained well before now, it could well be a normal lull. You also need to be confident that the weight is accurate - weighed naked on a properly-calibrated digital scale, on a hard flat surface.

It's just not clear if the feeding you describe is on the normal spectrum - it could be - or if your baby is having probs getting an efficient feed. This is why someone who knows what to look for would be useful, to observe a whole feed.

In any case, if you do use formula it does not mean you need to switch totally or use it long term....hope you find someone to talk through options in detail. I don't think there is enough info here, sorry.

hi stellamel. you are doing great. try to remember that your baby's stmach is about the size of a ping pong ball, so it doesn't take much milk to fill them up (and consequently doesn't take long for them to be hungry again). also the amount you can express is not indicative of the amount your baby is getting when he feeds iyswim. If he is having plenty of wet nappies i wouldn't panic quite yet. try to feed as often as he wants to and your supply will soon catch up, introducing formula at this stage will have the opposite effect and is likely to decrease your milk supply, so i would explore every other avenue first if you want to continue breastfeeding.

Do ring the helplines and see if you can get some RL help with your positioning, you sound like you are doing a brilliant job, have faith in your body's ability to feed your baby. you can do it xx

also - your breasts are never 'empty', even if they feel empty they aren't. there is always milk in your breasts available for your baby, and the more you feed him the more milk you will produce. your body produces milk whilst you are feeding so he will always be getting something.

it does sound like you could do with someone to check your latch though to ensure baby is latched on correctly and feeding as efficiently as possible.

I agree with everyone else who posted - there are some odd things happening here. You really need to get someone to observe a feed - someone trained in breastfeeding. It's possible everything is fine, and your supply just needs a bit of time, but it's also possible something is wrong here.

1. Wet nappies are good but it is expected that a baby of this age should be producing one or two poos a day. That is not to say this shows a problem, just that the baby should be looked at by a HCP i.e. your midwife.

I don't wish to pick a fight but actually this is not so - it is not unusual at all for BF to go for days and days without pooing - it is actually a good sign it means that everything is being used up and unless the child is plainly uncomfy or unwell there is not cause for concern about this bit of the problem. Plenty of wet nappies is a good indicator of how things are going as being able to slep 3 hours at night.

I also think that fussing about and feeding all the time isn't a problem really either - it is in the sense that you are completely sofa bound but babies can spend ages and ages buggering about - sometimes for comfort and sometimes to snack but it would be good to see a bf counsellor in person and check your latch - unless you are very sore I reckon you might have it right because this seems to be the first result of a bad latch - get it checked though anyway.

Sometimes when you get to this stage the breasts don't really feel that full sometimes, that is not to say they are and they can in fact refill in about 20 mins so don't worry too much about it.

I would say that not gaining weight in 5 days is not a major deal - if it were a few weeks, well he isn't losing weight and he's sleeping well so I really cannot see how is being starved - I am not sure that it is always helpful to weigh babies this often unless there is a problem - this could be a growth spurt, hence the feeding and no poo.

And you are not neglecting your other child, this bit doesn't last for long and a few episodes of pepper pig won't give her square eyes!!!! (waiting to get flamed for that one)

I have BF 3 for over a year each, one who was as big as a house, one who was a skinny miny for ages and one who has only been weighed 3 times in his 13 months on the planet - he only did a poo every 8 days! one lady in my bf groups boy went 11 days!!!!

I think what I am trying to say is try not to worry - lots of HV are quick to give you the formula ssolution' but whatever you give in formula you lose in BM and then it takes a lot of effort to get that back up and drop the formula - if you are struggling time wise now to do this then trying to get back off formula will be quick tricky. So if you are really determined to carry on, then just do it and don't worry about it. You have done a good job so far and there is no reason in my mind you shouldn't just carry on - you will have blips, thats the nature of things but the most important thing is the baby sounds fine. Eat loads, drink loads and get as much rest as you can - get in bed and make the world wait on you, you deserve it!

midwife said to top up soley on his lack of weight gain. He weighed 9lbs 3.5oz when he was born, then ended up in hospital with a few issues, then discovered he was dehydrated - had top ups in hospital as he dropped to 8lbs 1oz in one day! then my milk came in and in a week he went back up to 8lbs 14oz. So he was getting enough initially.

I am going to a breastfeeding meet tmrw, there will be counsellors there -am going to get them to observe how DS feeds, see if there is a latch problem.

What is babymoon?

thanks for the fennugreek tip

thanks for the post tarty - interesting reading

Babymoon = go to bed with baby for several days, lots of skin to skin contact, lots of rest and sleep for you. Someone else looks after toddler and brings you food and drinks.

Babymoon - laying in bed with the baby and not inviting anyone round

Bit like a honeymoon but with no champagne or shagging!!

Look just to be clear, I am trained as a peer supporter and I think he's not lost a lot of weight really considering the problems he has had. I think you have done really well so far and it is hard to balance with other children intitially but i find the longer it goes on the easier it gets. Some babies are just snackers and some are troughers - some feed really efficiently and some arse about. Don't lose faith in yourself please.

No fight necessary

You are correct Tarty....

"it is not unusual at all for BF to go for days and days without pooing"

....however this applies to an older breastfed baby.

In a new born baby barely 2 weeks old, there are different criteria for adequate outputs. The NCT have a great leaflet about this called 'What's in a nappy' if you are interested

thank you - babymoon sounds great, might try and get that this weekend, if I can get DP to take over DD

thanks tarty, am hopeful that the breastmate lady can help

I started "topping up" with DS2 when he was around the same age and I really regretted it. Looking back, I just needed to grit my teeth, get out a few more DVD boxsets and persevere with the feeding. I read your post with sympathy because i really could've written something similar; DS2 was a grazer and would faff around on the breast for hours.

It took me months to reduce the top ups and my milk supply never recovered 100%.

I agree that you need to see a trained bf counsellor. Midwives are not always specialists.

Re, the poo nappies - my boy at this age was about every 3 - 4 days and no one suggested to me that this was abnormal!!! and he's really normal now... that said the 8 day stuff was later on, i think around 6 weeks or so, so my apologies as I was being misleading with this but honestly I wouldn't panic. There must be enough milk if there are wet nappies and this baby did put on 13 ounces in 1 week!!! thats at least double what would be expected isn't it? Isn't it meant to be between 4 and 7 or somthing like that? . As tryharder says, get the boxsets out and your feet up..... I had a crisis or three with all of mine and really felt under pressure to get it right. I reckon you are going to feel a whole lot better after your meeting tomorrow, still knackered but more confident.

Yes - pooing less often than once or twice a day is fine, in BF babies, when they're at least a month old. Before that, it is cause for concern.

Your baby obviously was fine, thh, but that doesn't mean the OP's baby is. Each small thing (no recent gain, constant feeding, not much poo) might be ignorable on its own, but combined, they are cause for concern.

There is a distinct possibility that the scales are wrong in your weighings, stellamel.

My dd was 3 weeks early and tiny, so we were surprised to be told she was 7lb 11. She certainly didn't look it. 48 hours later (different scales) she was apparently 6lb 10.

DD gained from that point onwards.

I later challenged this apparent huge and rapid initial weight loss with a paed as I felt the birth weight was simply wrong, perhaps the scales were incorrectly calibrated. He agreed with me. We think she was possibly 7lb at most when born.

If your baby gained 13 oz in a single week (was this the same set of scales, naked baby etc?) You have very clear evidence that you have been able to transfer milk VERY effectively into this baby during that time! Please be encouraged by that. I'd be inclined to challenge the latest weighing and demand some more time to allow breastfeeding to establish itself.

The lack of poos at this early stage are not easily dismissed, so keep a close eye on his output. (any chance your other half might have changed the pooey ones without you being aware?) The wees are encouraging though, and suggest there is no dehydration to worry about.

I found if I fed directly before a weighing, dd was a couple of ounces heavier. And if she weed before a weighing, she was a couple of ounces lighter. It does make one cautious about drawing conclusions from weighings over a very short period of time. One can only see a reliable trend over a period of longer than a few days - and using the same scales under the same conditions.

I own my own baby scales now

Keep up the feedathon for now, and get your latch checked by a qualified BFC. You really need some proper support and advice from someone who knows what they are talking about.

P.S. congrats on your lovely new baby!

MW is a lunatic- are you sure she isn't a (bad) HV in midwife's clothing? Babies do not gain weight in a nice linear fashion. Expressing is not as efficient as the baby. If he is growing and seems contented then he is getting enough milk. Babies lose weight surprisingly fast if they're not feeding. And you will notice if he is losing weight- his cheeks and bottom will waste away. DD3 did lose a rather large amount of weight when she came out of NICU as we both found our feet with the feeding, but she fed a lot for a few days and bumped up the supply and the weight came right back on again. Does he look ill or wasting away? 6-8 wet nappies a day? Alert when he's awake?

As for the mobility issues when feeding for you, you could get a sling to carry him in- it will leave you hands free as well. The being stuck to the sofa phase honestly does not last very long- can you stick DD in front of CBeebies for a few days?