Random qestion - precisely just how do you breastfeed?!?!

[navyeyelasH]

First of the bat I'm not pregnant and I have no children; I work with children so things child related are more in my mind than most other people IYSWIM?

Anyway, Ive read in here and experienced in real life that BFing can be a bit of a bugger. I come from a long line of FFers but when I do have children I think I would like to BF. But having read the anguish on here if it doesn't work out so be it!

I get the impression it's not this amazing thing that someone just presses the "on" switch and away you go? You don't really get a 'Kum Bay Ya', earth mother, zen hotline to breast feeding goodness?

So just what the buggering hell do you do? And also what is this "My milk finally came in" business - is it not just there magically the minute the baby arrives?

Oh and one last thing, how the hell do you express? It seems like the worlds most impossible task if MN is anything to go by.

IME you have baby, put it to breast and it munched away happy. Wasn't sure if it even had anything, but it kept quiet for a while, so I assumed so. 24hrs laster, after bfing on and off all might, he was bringing red-stained posset up, so was getting a bit of blood in there, but at least I knew he was eating! So it really was an earth mother experience. When you don't feed for a couple of hours, your breasts just feel huge and weighed down, so you know that your milk is in. It's hard to explain really, but I didn't really have to encourage baby to feed. The tricky bit is gettig them on right to minimise the discomfort at first. It still was v painful for a couple of weeks. I stuck with it and bf'd for 9 months out of my little Acups!

He he, your message made me smile, your so right on so many things. BF is the hardest but best thing i've ever done (other than the whole having the baby bit!) I'll try and start from the beginning:

Your milk coming in - after about three days after the birth your milk 'comes in'. Before that point your milk is mainly colostrum (first, very nutritious milk full of essential anti bodies). There is not much of this and it can't keep a baby going on the long term, it's quite thick and feeding this is difficult, partly because your new to feeding and the babies new to it and it's just hard. At about three days you get engourgment, bloody painful and a very low point for any woman (BF or not) but once it's happened (about 24h's) you get a better flow of milk and BF can then begin to take shape a little.

BF is part of having a baby that no one really can prepare you for until you try it. Some women get on with it and some don't. There's no rhyme or reason for it in my experience, some people I know who have been very pro BF and tried and tried just haven't been able to and others have just been able to do it, no problems. In my personal experience, taking care of your nipples with nipple cream, keeping your own fluids up but not excessive and staying calm is a good start. I BF my son until 1yr and it's possibly the part of parenthood I worried about most, was he getting enough, was he satisfied etc but in the end the more I got used to it and relaxed about it the better it was.

So, why did I do it? Mainly the health benefits, it builds the childs immune system better than formual milk, it's natural and doesn't involve man made chemicals like powder, it's a lot cheaper, it's easier once you get the hang of it (it's always with you, no worries about steralising, taking bottles with you everywhere you go etc) and once I was over the initial hard bit I loved doing it, knowing I'm making him grow and it's me that's keeping him healthy.

Expressing - when your in a routine on feeding your body will expect to feed a baby at a certain time. If for some reason you then don't feed then your boobs will become sore, swollen and sometimes leak. This is where expressing can come in. It can be done by hand but I never managed to do this, I had a Avent electric expresser and it was great. Plug it in, pop it on and sit back while it does it's stuff! You can get hand operated versions if you're not near a plug but again I didn't find these as effective. Expressing can help you boost your milk supply if you're worried about having enough by tricking your body into thinking you need more milk than your baby is taking and gives you a nice stock in the freezer for other people to take over a few feeding session for you!

For me BF wasn't a walk in the park to start with, it took about 4 months or so to properly take off without me worrying but it was so so worth it. I was very sad to give up when I did, even though I was only doing the bedtime feed by that point but it was the right time and I don't regret a minute of it. Sorry I've waffled on for ages but you had a lot of questions! I hope I've helped! (Btw NCT have an excellent BF helpline if you ever need it)

troll for sure????

bear in mind that people tend to post here when they have problems - plenty of women are lucky to not have problems breastfeeding!

this may help - but from my experience, my baby knew what to do, and with a little help on positioning, I learnt what to do too!

apologies if this is for real. If and when you get pregnant you will be given lots of support.
The basics of it are tho, get the baby to suck on boob.... obviously that's the bottom line, but can be easier said than done!

Agree with Arolf - the thing I didn't realise at first is that the baby feeds - you help her and the nork get into the right position and then just lie/sit there and let her get on with it.

Sorry Humptynumpty, I'm quite new to MN, what does your comment mean?

Ah, computer just updated and your new comment came! Thought it was MN code for something!

I assumed that it was easy and instinct would take over. DS1 and I hadn't a clue-luckily the hospital staff were very good and it is easy once you get the hang of it. I never managed to express so I wouldn't worry about it. Don't over think things in advance!

JimJammum - sounds like you had a very straightforward BF experience then!

Thanks fayzal for the very detailed reply, it's very helpful.

I know about the mechanics of breastfeeding and the mechanics of expressing and that expressing can be good to keep up supply and other logistics etc.

I suppose my question really is, if it's as simple as "if and when you get pregnant you will be given a lot of support" how come so many women get a) stressed to the max BFing b) "quit" BFing. And how do I not become one of those women if and when the time comes. Like are there some good books/websites etc. What helped you "get it". What do you wish you cold have done tried differently etc.

Clearly the "support" aint there and I'm just trying (perhaps too far in advance but hey ho, as explained I deal with children every day so it is something I think about regularly - not just breastfeeding but other child relates matter like "my child will never be a fussy eater" ) to get a head start on things and also be able to offer advice to other mums I come across.

Is that really so troll like?

Thank you for making me feel like my question in a silly one humptynummpty - I know there are a lot of trolls around but it takes 2 minutes to check.

Everyone in my family has breastfed, so I naturally assumed I would, and I went to NCT classes which had a breastfeeding workshop, so I felt well prepared. But when my baby was born I remember thinking "He must be hungry. I should feed him. But - how?" I just had no idea what to do, everything had gone from my head. Luckily I had a great midwife who helped me get sorted

Really though it is simple, in theory. You put the baby to your breast, they have a "rooting reflex" which makes them root around for the nipple, they find it and latch on, then they have a sucking reflex which makes them suck and then find it makes milk come out, which encourages them to suck more.

On the other side of things, the mammary glands in your breasts are all ready to go - they have been getting hormones during pregnancy to produce milk, and as soon as the placenta leaves the body it stimulates them to change from producing colostrum (the first milk) to mature milk, this change takes about 3 days.

Anyway so the baby sucks on the breast, which removes the colostrum and this sends a message to the mammary glands to produce more milk, they will keep producing it as long as the baby is there suckling away. The more the baby sucks, the more milk is produced. In the early days the baby has to suck a lot to stimulate more milk production, the body and the baby are not yet in sync so there is a lot of feeding by the baby, feeds can take a long time and be very frequent. In some cases you can be feeding more than you are not. However it does settle down and the breasts and the baby synchronise and it all gets a lot easier.

Expressing is fairly easy for most women, as long as you have a good pump or have got the hang of doing it by hand.

Please keep asking questions if you are curious, I always think you can never have too much information

OK first tip - NEVER assume your child will not be a fussy eater as you will be destined to become Mother Of The Child Who Only Eats Toast.

I think the previous poster meant you will get a lot of support on mumsnet. You are right that the support in other areas is often lacking. It's a big issue for a lot of people - and the question asked always seems to be "How can we encourage more women to bf?" when a lot of people (me included) think it should be "How can we support more women in the choice they make regarding infant feeding?"

Something like 75% of mums want to breastfeed, and I think less than 50% are at 6 weeks. There is something very wrong there.

I don't think your OP was troll-like at all.

navy I apologise for offending you, but I really couldn't understand the question. There is tons of support available for breast feeding. There is tons of information about it, when you get pregnant they bombard you with leaflets, booklets, info about it. Last week I was given a DVD, about a dozen different leaflets, an invitation to a bf support group in my town and an invitation to parenting classes where 1 class specifically addresses feeding.
IMO and IME the major problems with bf are

1. that people simply do not see it, ff is everywhere and many people feel it is the norm so decide to do it themselves
2. that some people in fact feel pressurized so much that it turns them off it
3. that once baby is born and you are in the hospital, many wards are drastically understaffed and it can feel intimidating to ask for help when staff are so busy
4. it ain't easy, so many people get frustrated/sore/exhausted etc, and if there isn't support on tap, they give up and switch to ff.

Once again I apologise for offending you. I (wrongly) assumed you were new to mn otherwise you would have taken a look at the numerous threads that are on here every day about problems with bf/support/making the decision to bf v ff etc....

Exactly Bertie botts, that is what I don't get and what I am curious / readying myself (potentially) for. The majority of the (limited) responses here are "I just knew/I had great help" but if you're not confident in your bodies ability/have a good support system then it seems like it's something that can complete alter the first few weeks with your newborn. And also the choices you may make RE feeding when it comes to any future babies.

Because of my work I obviously meet a lot of mums with babies and as well as helping myself here I would like to think I may be able to point any struggling mums in the right direction for some support.

So from what I have read so far, it should be relatively simple but quite painful at the beginning (but not during feeds) and "picturing a nice relaxing place helps with the pain" [sniggers].

So what causes it to go tits up [excuse the pun!]? It mainly down to tongue tie/positioning/general knackeredness and overwhelmingness? Can you have non BFing friendly boobs?

piscesmoon sorry missed your post - thanks for the link, just reading it now.

navy in answer to your wanting to give advice to other mums having difficulty, they should contact their midwife/health visitor who should be able to put them in contact with a local breast feeding support worker. Otherwise there are lots of organisations who can help which have phone numbers to put you in touch with local contacts including La Leche League, NCT etc...
I think the support does exist, but sadly there's not enough of it. If you are not confident/comfortable/whatever to make a fuss and ask for it, sadly you will give up bf which is a shame because often with a little help and tweaking your techniques many problems can be solved.

Bertie, knowing my luck I will be "Mother Of The Child Who Only Eats Toast and Dried Chewing Gum That Has Been Scrapped Up Off The Pavements!"

Although saying that you don't see so much of it on the floor these days?

Hi navy

For me, in the early days of my firstborn, I remember thinking 'how on earth am I going to do this?'

DD1 cried throughout her first feed. I have a video of me just after birth asking "is this normal?" It turned out that DD1 was tongue-tied, and fortunately I noticed it & it was dealt with on day 3.

The key for me was realising that babies breastfeed, not nipplefeed. They need to have the breast in their mouth so that the nipple is quite deep in the mouth, and that they are sucking on the brownish bit of the breast, the areola. Their tongues then rhythmically move along the underside of the nipple to ease the milk out.

Babies who nipple feed give their mothers very sore nipples.

DD1 and I got it right after lots of practice. Being patient and working to get a good latch, even if it took half an hour, paid off.

When DD2 was born 5 weeks early, I was amazed to see that she just knew what to do. Big wide open mouth, found my breast, and wham - there she was. Of course, having fed DD1 for 7 months, I knew what I was doing, so that helped.

DD3 is asleep on me as we type, having had a lovely feed.

Humptynumpty: "If and when you get pregnant you will be given lots of support.
The basics of it are tho, get the baby to suck on boob" - my god, if I were to suspect anyone of being a troll on this thread it certainly wouldn't be the OP! How simplistic is that comment of yours?!

I'm glad BF was so straightforward for you and that you found lots of support, but for many other women, they have the opposite experience. The only support I had pre-birth was BF leaflets from the midwife and a DVD that came free with something. All very good for describing what SHOULD happen with normal, successful breastfeeding, but absolutely awful for helping you when things just don't seem to be working AT ALL.

eg. advice like "it might hurt slightly when you first latch your baby on, but then it should settle down and feeding shouldn't be painful". Well, what the bloody hell do you do if it IS painful and carries on being painful (despite taking your baby off and repositioning) so that your nipples become blistered all around and turn into giant scabs, and you just sob as you're trying to feed because the pain is nearly as bad as labour, as happened with me - both times?

What happens during the first day or so with your baby if you think you've fed your baby ok but then he/she just doesn't settle to sleep AT ALL, but instead screams and screams till falling into an exhausted sleep for half an hour, then wakes up rooting and the whole thing starts again. All that after you've been awake all night in labour and not slept at all for 48 hours yourself. Where is the person who can advise you if that's normal, or whether you are simply not supposed to be suffering like that?

What happens if your milk just DOESN'T come in after 3 days, like the books and DVDs tell you? And your baby is literally starving because thing just aren't working and your baby ISN'T getting what it needs from your boobs? My milk only came in on day 5 with both my babies (community midwives were surprised at that but couldn't offer any advice or how to try and get it to come in quicker) - what the hell are you supposed to do until it does? I had not been told about supplemental feeding/cup feeding and how to go about it and in what circumstances and so believe me, by day 5 my babies needed sustenance or were on the way to being hospitalised, and so they ended up on formula.

What happens if the hospital midwives insist after a cursory glance that your latch "looks right to me", then walk out the room with the baby bobbing off and on, clearly getting nothing much to satisfy him, and you grimacing through the pain.

What if you don't have any breastfeeding support groups in your area, or know of any family or friends you can ask? Or if Youtube videos of how to do it and demos of right/wrong latches didn't exist (as was the case with my two a few years back).

You see, the OP has written a very valid post. It's all very well dismissing her with flippant comments like "you'll get support, you'll be shown what to do, don't worry", but for a lot of women, that is simply NOT their experience.

A colleague of mine who had her first the same time as I did was discussing feeding with me, and coudln't understand the problems I'd been having. She said that she just put her son on the boob and he started sucking properly straight away and it hurt for a few seconds and then was comfortable, and her baby was clearly getting something as he was wetting nappies and sleeping in between. She really couldn't understand why I was having difficulties as she found that it "just happened".

So I guess that unless that you've personally experienced or observed all those hurdles and problems then you'll never be the right kind of person to give the OP any helpful advice to make sure she is THOROUGHLY prepared for every BF eventuality.

OP, I think 'coming from a long line of FFers' is the reason breastfeeding seems so puzzling to you. My mum wasn't perfect (by a long chalk) but she did always encourage her daughters to breastfeed and I think that's very valuable. All 12 of her grandchildren have been breastfed as a result.

CurlyHairedAssassin - you obviously went through hell trying to breastfeed. I'm sorry. Even if you'd been warned things might go so wrong, would it have made any difference, though? It seems to me a bit like learning about normal birth and making plans - then you push and a little hand and foot pop out (which happened to me!) - you're well outside the norm then, and whatever you planned isn't going to work out.

Surely statistically the OP is much more likely to be one of the lucky ones, like your colleague, who just needs a bit of factual information, and a bit of confidence?

(I hope not to offend! It's really late and I may not be as tactful as I want to be.)

I think the main problem is that, for the majority of mums, breastfeeding is hard for the first 6-12 weeks, and then it gets easier. But if you get overwhelmed during those first weeks, and you don't know that it gets easier, you think "There is no way I can do this for 6 months/a year" and stop.

There are LOTS of reasons why people stop breastfeeding before they want to. That is why it's difficult to explain in one post. You need to ask more specific questions, because you have asked a huge question which everyone is answering from different angles and I am finding the answers confusing, I don't know about you!

Just to reply to part of your post:

So from what I have read so far, it should be relatively simple but quite painful at the beginning (but not during feeds) and "picturing a nice relaxing place helps with the pain" [sniggers].

It's different for everyone. In the beginning I did find it painful for about 15 seconds at the beginning of a feed, not in between, not for the whole feed. Other women find the whole thing painful and if you have latch problems, it can be excruciating. The basics about pain is: it hurts to start with, but it isn't that bad (You have just given birth!!) and for most women it fades quickly. If it is very painful it may be you need some help with the latch.

So what causes it to go tits up [excuse the pun!]? It mainly down to tongue tie/positioning/general knackeredness and overwhelmingness? Can you have non BFing friendly boobs?

Again, there are lots of reasons. A big reason is just being overwhelmed, either because you had no idea what it was going to be like, or that you had expectations of a baby going 4 hours between feeds, etc. It is nothing like bottle feeding so you have to wipe all that information out which can be hard as I'm sure we subconsciously store "baby raising information" right from childhood up until we have our own babies. It's something we are suddenly thrown into, so we have to have an idea from somewhere. Understanding the biology behind how breastfeeding works is a huge help - as is seeing it as not just about nutrition. It really is completely different to FF. A lot of perceived problems come from assuming a breast is like a bottle - it isn't. We are encouraged in our culture not to let the baby comfort suck, or "use the breast as a dummy" - that is completely backwards! The word dummy means "dummy nipple" - babies are meant to suck for comfort as well as for food. They can't do this with a bottle which is why dummies were invented.

Another big concern is not having enough milk. If you feed on demand this is really unlikely, but there are lots of things which are really common which make mums think they are running out of milk. For example, in the early days newborns can feed constantly. They can cry a lot. Babies' weight gain can fluctuate. They go through growth spurts which means they suddenly feed loads more than usual and seem to be getting nothing out. At about 12 weeks your milk supply regulates and you suddenly stop being engorged when a feed is due. If a young baby is offered a bottle (say mum is tired, or she thinks baby is not getting enough, or any number of reasons) they will often guzzle it down enthusiastically and fall asleep. Sometimes this is a marked contrast from their behaviour at the breast.

...I am rambling, there are just too many reasons why breastfeeding doesn't work out. The sad thing is a lot of these are preventable with the correct support.

I would be inclined to agree with l39, actually, I don't think it's necessarily helpful to prepare new mums for every breastfeeding problem they might face in advance. Of course saying "It's easy and you just pop the baby on and it works" isn't helpful either if you do have problems but I think the most helpful thing is to know what to expect, what is considered "normal" and where to find help and support should you experience any problems.

I'm very lucky I think, I just point the baby at the boob, very occasionally she doesn't latch properly, but that is obvious in her as she somehow looks and sounds different as well as my boob not getting the "relief" feeling.

I actually have to keep reminding myself that I am lucky or I would have no idea why so many people give up!

She does feed loads, but to me that is just part of having a baby, part of the pregnancy/birth/childrearing process.

With DD1, I didn't go to any classes or anything, but when we did have problems with her latch, the midwives helped me and it was sorted.

This time, I did go to classes, and was shocked about how hard they made bf sound. Surely the majority of feeds are of the "point baby at boob, have a brew until they finish" variety? If you have problems with pregnancy, you know to go to the midwife, so surely just showing some films of people feeding so woman have some idea, telling the partners to support the mother, and handing out support numbers and increasing support visits would be a better use of resources than scaring mothers with films of women feeding with their entire boobs out, piles of cushions and a midwife hovering?

l39, you certainly didn't offend me. Believe it or not if I ever have a third baby (highly unlikely!), I would STILL try to breastfeed. However, seeing as I seemed to meet with every potential problem under the sun the first two times (except mastitis), I would hope that I'd be far better equipped with information as to how to overcome those problems if they arose again. For example, thanks to mumsnet and the internet in general, I know now that there are herbal supplements and other things that you can take to try to encourage your milk to come in earlier. I now know that it's possible to cup feed at home if you want until your milk supply is better to ensure your baby gets SOMETHING that's not from a bottle (and that it's not just something the health care assistants do in the hospital - they didn't tell me "if you have any problems when you leave here, you can buy these cups from suchandsuch a place or use such-and-such instead - I thought that cupfeeding was just something that was done only in hospitals! In fact I'd never heard of cupfeeding until DS1 had one in hospital.)

So yes, while it would be nice to just give out information of the basics of how to do it, and what is normal, if we aren't going to tell women all the things that MIGHT go wrong in case it puts them off trying altogether, we DO really need to make sure that women have someone really really good and helpful to hand the MINUTE they are experiencing diffiulties. We need to make sure that women read as much information as possible about breastfeeding prior to birth - just read, read, read and watch, watch, watch videos etc. I'm just sad that I was ignorant enough to think that the NHS Pregnancy & Birth book and a free DVD was enough preparation for breastfeeding (for a lot of lucky women, that MIGHT have been enough), and also that the midwives would know what they were doing when advising about latches, and actually, also that some midwives just don't seem to WANT to deal with a woman who is experience loads and loads of BF problems.

I'm still a staunch breastfeeding supporter, but I just think that a number of women like myself who desperately want to breastfeed are let down every year by inadequate prepration, poorly trained hospital miwives, lack of local support groups and breastfeeding counsellors.

Excuse me curlyhaired I have bf 2 babies. The first was relatively simple but I was lucky because i had a very supportive midwife and health visitor and I was not afraid to ask for help. I also bought several books which I read from cover to cover during pregnancy and used to help me get more ideas about positioning/pain/etc, etc.
When my son was born, it was a lot more difficult. Again, I was quick to ask for support and a local breast feeding supporter was on the phone the same day and able to visit me to offer more support.
I am not that naive that I think bf is so easy.
But, I would be interested to see how many people who gave up actually asked for help and weren't given any. that is not a critiscism of them, rather there are many many people who are simply not comfortable asking for help for whatever reason. It is not fair to blame low bf rates on a lack of support as there is plenty of excellent support, in real life, on the internet e.g. www.kellymom.com, on mumsnet and so on.
Maybe my first reaction to the OP was unhelpful, and I have apologised twice.

navyeyelasH
Regarding pointing bfing mums you come into contact with in the right direction; if you google the name of your town and "breastfeeding" you may well come up with a babecafe-type place, which has breastfeeding supprt which women can drop in to. My town has an excellent one; the community midwives and HV refer there, they don't give any help directly.

Also, you could see if there is anything that you can do in your job to give support to breastfeeding mums, which in the process will do a little bit to help normalize the thought of breastfeeding for others. Like, someone who runs a day nursery could provide a big squishy rocking chair and v shape bf cushion, and put on next newsletter that mothers who are bf before and after nursery are very welcome to sit there to give a feed when they drop off/pick up.

There is a theory that the reason so many more women have problems and pain bf in the western world (where the norm has become ff) is becuase women are used to seeing babies being held in a position suitable for ff. (Much higher up than is necessary bf.) They may even have fed babies with bottles through their job of family/friends. so that is something to be aware of when you have your own DC I think, to try to fight your learned behaviour of the way to hold a baby.

Want to echo what some others have said: most people starting threads about bfing will be those experiencing problems. I've never really had difficulties, and have never started a thread! Then again, anyone getting ideas of what pregnancy is like from the threads I've started would imagine that it involves vomiting every day for 9 months, which in reality is unusual.