Fenugreek and hind milk - first post!

[Punky79]

Hi all

This is my first post here - eek! I wanted to start by saying thank you to you all - I've been reading these forums and they are amazing!

So, my q is around fenugreek and whether it affects hind milk. My LO is 11 days old and exclusive b'feeding. He feeds every 3 hours about during the day (I will wake him if he goes over 3 hours) and on demand at night. He has gone 4 hours before at night but as it's early days there's really no pattern.

I am pumping on the advice of my lactation consultant (we had some teething probs in the first week) and in preparation to start giving him one bottle of EBM each evening when he turns 3 weeks.

I started pumping and was only getting small amounts so thought I would try fenugreek. It's definitely working - I smell of maple syrup and LO's stools smell of popcorn and I can now pump 3-4 oz in one sitting (30 minutes).

However, should I be concerned that fenugreek will give me oversupply and affect the amount of hind milk my LO gets. He is not a windy baby but since me taking fg he burps at each feed (just once) and for the very first time today posseted some milk at the start of a feed because the flow was faster. His stools are mustard colour but tonight's was ever so slightly green which I've heard means they're not getting enough hind milk.

What do you guys think?

personally i think that if breastfeeding is going well then there is no need to mess with it by taking anything or pumping!

why did your lactation consultant advise pumping? and why do you need to give baby a bottle at 3 weeks?

i honestly think that by adding in things like expressing and bottles you're just complicating something that is naturally simple and easy to do (for the most part!!)

hi punky - congratulations on your DS!!

i am not an expert, but every 3 hours doesn't seem very much for an 11 day old baby. coudln't you feed him more often and that would increase your supply? or am i missing soemthing? why do you need to give him a bottle at 3 weeks?

Thanks for your reply thisisyesterday. She advised at our BF class that if we want OH to give a bottle each day (EBF) then we should start between 3-6 weeks otherwise they may refuse the bottle. This is definitely something I want to avoid!!

She also advised to start pumping now (well when he was a few days old actually) as we had latch problems and she advised to try and have a couple of feeds worth expressed so if necessary I could finger feed him - this was starting with hand expressing and then pump.

Hi Kristingle - sorry should have said it's at least every 3 hours. He was jaundice and had low blood sugar at first so was v v sleepy so have to make sure I wake him every 3 hours if he is sleepy.

can i ask, is she international board certified? and did you pay for her advice?

i only ask because there are some highly suspicious characters out there calling themselves lactation consultants who know very little about breastfeeding overall!!!

l;atch problems need to be sorted out by helping baby latch effectively, not by finding another way to feed him surely?

i won't comment too much on giving a bottle, other than that it's generally not recommended before breastfeeding is fully estavblished (usually after the 6 week mark)
it certainly isn't necessary for dad to feed baby in order to bond or anyhting, and i think that a lot of people feel pressured to express and let their partner bottle feed, but it just creates more work for you!

honestly, if it were me i'd ditch the fenugreek and the expressing and get on with enjoying my new baby.
there is plenty of time to give bottles later if you really want to

but why do you want your OH to give the baby a bottle each day??? unless you are good at expressing the then its a lot of work to express a whole feed. and what if the baby takes to the bottle like a dream but starts refusing the breast? its much less work for him than bf, especially if he is a sleepy little thing with a poor latch

sorry, I don't understand

Yes, I second that. Let your baby regulate his supply naturally, and then try expressing in a few weeks. Sounds like it is all going well after a tricky start, so well done!

The slightly green poo doesn't necessarily mean you have an imbalance. BF baby poo changes colours a lot for absolutely no reason (so I've read and experienced with my DS!) and slightly green is within the spectrum of normal. The one time my DS had very very watery and dark green for a few days, we think he had a tummy bug as my DH also had vomiting and diarrhoea around the same time.

You're doing really well to be able to get that much from pumping at this stage! I could only get about 50ml for ages, but never tried fenugreek. I started having DH give DS a bottle of EBM from just under 2 weeks, for the same reasons as you. Happy to report he switches from bottle to breast with no problems at all now (he's 4 months).

I didn't build up a store before giving him the EBM. Just pumped what I could, then gave it to him the next day (and sometimes had to top him up from the breast if he didn't seem satisfied). We started out with him having just 2.5-3oz per bottle, and gradually have worked our way up to 6oz at night.

eeek, that should read 'just under 3 weeks'

Forgot to add that I also think it's a load of crap to try to set up some sort of routine ebm oh bonding feed. Ebm is not the same as milk straight from you, your body makes it to order, as it were, with the exact nutrients and good immune stuff (sorry, not very technical) that is required at the time. Regular suckling on demand is also good for your supply. Occasional bottles are great to give you a break but every day doesn't sound like good advice to me.

green poo information here on kellymom

Thanks all for your replies.

The lactation consultant I promise is one of the best in the country - she's very very well regarded in her field and I trust her completely. Her no 1 aim was to sort out the latch and we did this very successfully in one session (with a follow up a few days later to check on progress). Sorry that sounds really defensive but I've also known her since I was a baby - in fact she was the MW who delivered me!

The finger feeding was suggested so that IF he didn't latch successfully I had another option other than formula from a bottle. Fortunately his latch is now almost perfect thanks to her advice.

Thanks Kristingle - who knew we'd be so interested in poo so quickly!!

Unforch I can't ask her about the fenugreek as she's now on her holiday!

Am I understanding you correctly - you are taking fenugreek and punping several times a day, sterilising and setting up the pump, storing the milk, dismantling in the pump and resterilising it TO GIVE YOURSELF A BREAK???

are you mad??? the way you get a break is to put your feet up on the sofa and watch TV/read a magazine / call a friend while you feed your LO. then you hand him to your OH to change and entertain for an hour while you SLEEP

then your OH makes a meal and puts a washing in the machine.perhaps runs a vacuum around the house

that's a break. not faffing with expressing unless you HAVE to

just my (not very) humble opinion

Errrr where did I say I wanted a break?

My OP clearly says I pump for 30 mins a day - hardly a hardship and sterilising takes minutes!

I can't spend the whole day sleeping!

Gosh, Punky.....it's hard to comment when the consultant has seen your baby and you and has presumably worked stuff out for you as an individual but all this sounds very over-managed to me, especially for a situation 11 days post-natal.

This complicated routine you've been left with - cos she's now on holiday, fair enough! - leaves you asking a talkboard for advice

You can see a midwife still, and if you are at all concerned, then it would be a good idea, I think. Not because I think there is anything to be concerned about, but really to help you think about whether this routine is helping you either now, or in the future, and to get another perspective on it.

Men do not need to give bottles of ebm to bond with their babies, BTW, or to give their partners a break....it's entirely optional and also does not depend on the baby getting used to a bottle either, truly.

Just a few thoughts

I'm sorry, I thought that was why you wanted your Dh to give him a bottle

since his latching problem is now sorted and there is no need to store EBM to finger feed him

so why DO you want to give him a bottle every day? since there is a chance it will adversely affect his latch, which you have worked hard to correct? and he is a sleepy baby who needs woken to feed? and you don't need any extra rest / sleep?

We x-posted....I see you're not expressing to get a break, but I put my last paragraph in because the two reasons I gave are common ones for mothers expressing. If they don;t apply, sorry.

Thanks Tiktok

I've read this thread and I'm still not sure why you are taking fenugreek now when you appear to have no supply problems now. I would kill to be able to pump 4-5oz! I've got a cracking supply with DD3 but still can't pump like that

I have taken fg previously to up my supply (no/low supply after excl. ffing jaundiced newborn DD1 and low supply after an illness and exclusively feeding both my 2 w/o DD2 and my 22 m/o DD1). As soon as the problem was resolved I stopped taking the fenugreek. With DD1 I went from a 38DD to a 38F in 48hours due to fenugreek and I weaned down from 12 x 640mg fg a day till I was sure it was all good. How much fg are you taking? Fenugreek did seem to have an effect on the nappies so it may well be the fg not your milk.

I know it is difficult to question the advice given by someone you trust and I woudn't recommend just tossing it aside on the say so of some people on the net (not saying anyone is say to do this). However, I think you need to look at your situation as it is currently and remember some of this advice was given to rectify your previous situation.

Re. fore/hind milk imbalances - they are a bit of a red herring the fat content of milk increases over the duration of a feed (milk expressed before the start of feed and milk expressed at the end of a feed) but there isn't a 'switch' between low and high fat milk. There is a really good explanation of fore/hind milk here

I may be wrong but I think one of the problems with taking fenugreek and expressing large amounts is that your body thinks your baby needs more milk than he does - so your baby comes off the breast when they are full, but because you now have oversupply, your baby isn't then getting the hindmilk. That's why I think generally it is recommended that your baby feeds from one breast for as long as possible to be sure it's emptied before offering the next if required. There is no 'switch' but the milk gets fattier as the feed progresses.

missjackson, yes, it's not a good thing to artificially 'inflate' the amount of milk you make....babies can normally be trusted to stimulate the amount they need.

Mothers shouldn't worry too much about fore/hindmilk though (see link posted by TruthSweet) and it's not right to make sure the first breast is 'emptied'....that's virtually impossible anyway Best thing is to let the baby take what he needs and judge from his behaviour when to offer the second breast.

Thanks Tiktok - seems there is a lot of confusion over the '1 breast or both' question, but any advice that means your baby ends up spending less time suckling overall is misleading - IMHO it is always worth offering the second breast (or third or fourth) even if you think they are full, as sometimes even just the change might tempt your baby into suckling a bit more, and that's what will up your supply.

I shouldn't have said 'to be sure it's emptied' as of course there is no such thing as an empty breast when it comes to bf .